Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[elbows]

I think you will find that the people of Gaza elected Hamas.
Liar?

It was not a Gaza-only election and Hamas ended up in full control of Gaza in particular because of later events and a short civil war/armed power struggle.

And the election was in 2006, which means.....



Reader added context to that sort of twitter thread, which sadly did not show up automatically when I linked to the tweet, says:

No elections have occurred in Gaza since 2006, 17 years ago.

As of 2021, 64.2% of Gaza are 25 years old or younger. You require to be 18 years old to vote, meaning you have to be at least 35 years old to have voted in the previous Gaza election.

Also even if you'd prefer to think of the population as being unchanged and frozen in time since way back then, the reasons for people voting that way were also complex at the time. I'm not going to claim that polling carried out after the election was a perfect guide to sentiments, but things such as the following still need to be factored in:

However, new polling following the election indicated that two-thirds of Palestinians believed Hamas should change its policy of rejecting Israel's right to exist. Most also supported a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Post-election polls indicated that Hamas' victory was due largely to Palestinians' desire to end corruption in government rather than support for the organization's political platform

From 2006 Palestinian legislative election - Wikipedia

It is reasonable to consider that it was at least in part a protest vote against the party that had previously dominated the scene, was rife with corruption, and subject to accusations of having become too complicit in upholding the status quo. The sort of thing considered understandable when it happens in modern democracies with normal electoral cycles, let alone to a people subject to decades of occupation, who hadnt even had the opportunity for that sort of election since 1996, and whose previous charismatic leader had died.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Israel is crossing a line, even for them.

 

[Knotted]

 

[cupid_stunt]

Breaking news on Al Jazeera, Israel has conducted an overnight 'ground raid' into Gaza, with troops & tanks.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Spoiler: Israel Defense Forces statement

@IDF

In preparation for the next stages of combat, the IDF operated in northern Gaza. IDF tanks & infantry struck numerous terrorist cells, infrastructure and anti-tank missile launch posts. The soldiers have since exited the area and returned to Israeli territory.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Night assaults on new Grozny and out before breakfast . The IDF really don’t want to occupy the zone do they? All day shelling and nightime incursions. Cannot imagine how bad conditions are the the inhabitants. Terrible

 

[cupid_stunt]

You did. After telling me where to go.
I'm not offended, there just didn't seem any point engaging with people whose only response was to tell me to "fuck off", or accuse me of working for the IDF.
I think a large number of the posters on here are posting because they hate Israel/Jews. They have their reasons but not all of it is to do with the way Israel has behaved. Why do I think this? Well this thread alone is up to 188 pages already in 20 days. Far more than similar situations involving Rohingya, Nogorno Karabakh, Uyghurs, Afghanistan, Yemen and Ukraine in total.
The two state solution is a westerners solution that neither Israel or the Palestinians believe in. It would solve nothing. The injustice felt by the Palestinians would still be there and they would keep pushing to recover their lost homes and land.
The single state solution doesn't work if all people are to have an equal stake - because it wouldn't be a Jewish homeland for very long as the Palestinians would outnumber the Jews.
I don't have a lot of sympathy for the civilians in Gaza. They harbour and hide Hamas terrorists and provide them with succour and support. Two million of them and they don't know who Hamas are? Or where they have the rockets? Or where they hide hostages? Pull the other one. I don't want to see children hurt but they put their own children in harms way by not stopping what has happened. I suspect a lot of them actually support what happened on 7th October. So for me the sooner Israel pushes them all out of Israel it can focus on securing it's external borders without having to look over it's shoulder at the evil within.

You accused others of being antisemitic, then you post this 'final solution' nonsense, you racist piece of shit.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

And just to add to this, this is something Corbyn got wrong in years gone by. Calling people from Hamas or Hezbollah friends was a big mistake. Islamists are not our friends. It is possible, and necessary, to support the Palestinians without supporting Islamism.

He didn't do that. He called a delegation from Hamas that came to a conference held by a Jewish led organisation to discuss how peace and security could be achieved "our friends from Hamas" He called a specific group of Hamas delegates who travelled to seek peace "friends". If you can't get beyond the idea that every time a label is used to describe a specific individual or small group of individuals it inevitably means it is referring to everyone the label can be attached to then you have gone down the rabbit hole that leads to treating all posters of Urban as being drug addled left wing fanatics, when actually that only applies to a select few of us*. It's also important, if you actually want to make sense of the Middle East, to make some effort to understand the difference between avowedly Islamist groups, and secular groups within a Muslim context, or Shia Islamist groups, Sunni Islamist groups, and Wahabi Islamist groups. Simply treating ALL groups of militant Muslims as if they are effectively the same thing is a regular aspect of gutter press gaslighting.

* I like to think I sometime qualify as part of that select group,

 

[Eric Jarvis]

Just to be clear I despise Hamas as I do all islamism, and am depressed by the fact that the current israeli ethnic cleansing of Gaza will only make them stronger in the long run.

I'm not sure it is anywhere near as simple as that. Firstly I think this has diminished Islamic Jihad in Gaza much more than it has harmed Hamas. However from what I hear from Gaza (and I have friends there two of whom have managed to get messages out on social media in the last few days), it may strengthen the support for the political leadership of Hamas whilst diminishing support for their military leadership.

 

[Knotted]

Norman Finkelstein socks it to the no war but class war types

 

[krtek a houby]

Occasionally, the graun gets it right

The thousands calling for a ceasefire and peace deserve better than abuse and belittlement | Aditya Chakrabortty

Politicians and much of the media ignore, stereotype and demonise protestors. This lack of engagement is a risk to us all, says Guardian columnist Aditya Chakrabortty

www.theguardian.com

The Labour leadership had no grasp of their own grassroots’ feelings, just as the press has shown no curiosity about the hundreds of thousands of people – often strikingly young – taking to the streets. The commentators would rather vilify those protesting at the slaughter of Palestinian babies than find out who they are and what’s driving them.

 

[Ax^]

You did. After telling me where to go.
I'm not offended, there just didn't seem any point engaging with people whose only response was to tell me to "fuck off", or accuse me of working for the IDF.
I think a large number of the posters on here are posting because they hate Israel/Jews. They have their reasons but not all of it is to do with the way Israel has behaved. Why do I think this? Well this thread alone is up to 188 pages already in 20 days. Far more than similar situations involving Rohingya, Nogorno Karabakh, Uyghurs, Afghanistan, Yemen and Ukraine in total.
The two state solution is a westerners solution that neither Israel or the Palestinians believe in. It would solve nothing. The injustice felt by the Palestinians would still be there and they would keep pushing to recover their lost homes and land.
The single state solution doesn't work if all people are to have an equal stake - because it wouldn't be a Jewish homeland for very long as the Palestinians would outnumber the Jews.
I don't have a lot of sympathy for the civilians in Gaza. They harbour and hide Hamas terrorists and provide them with succour and support. Two million of them and they don't know who Hamas are? Or where they have the rockets? Or where they hide hostages? Pull the other one. I don't want to see children hurt but they put their own children in harms way by not stopping what has happened. I suspect a lot of them actually support what happened on 7th October. So for me the sooner Israel pushes them all out of Israel it can focus on securing it's external borders without having to look over it's shoulder at the evil within.

what the hell is this fuckwit still doing here
calling for the exile of 2.2 million people

still reckon strapping this fella and firing him into the sun is worth a try to see if it help sort the situation

 

[cupid_stunt]

Occasionally, the graun gets it right

The thousands calling for a ceasefire and peace deserve better than abuse and belittlement | Aditya Chakrabortty

Politicians and much of the media ignore, stereotype and demonise protestors. This lack of engagement is a risk to us all, says Guardian columnist Aditya Chakrabortty

www.theguardian.com

The Labour leadership had no grasp of their own grassroots’ feelings, just as the press has shown no curiosity about the hundreds of thousands of people – often strikingly young – taking to the streets. The commentators would rather vilify those protesting at the slaughter of Palestinian babies than find out who they are and what’s driving them.

That's a good and fair article,

Linked from that is The National's article on a poll regarding a ceasefire, just as a reminder -

58% responded that there “definitely should be” and 18% said there “probably should be”, while only 5% said there “probably shouldn’t be” and 3% said there “definitely shouldn’t be”.

This brings the UK public at a direct odds with both the official UK Government policy and that of Labour, the official opposition.

That was a yougov poll on the 19th Oct., I bet the proportion wanting a ceasefire is even higher now, with the recent images & news coming out of Gaza.

 

[Pickman's model]

You did. After telling me where to go.
I'm not offended, there just didn't seem any point engaging with people whose only response was to tell me to "fuck off", or accuse me of working for the IDF.
I think a large number of the posters on here are posting because they hate Israel/Jews. They have their reasons but not all of it is to do with the way Israel has behaved. Why do I think this? Well this thread alone is up to 188 pages already in 20 days. Far more than similar situations involving Rohingya, Nogorno Karabakh, Uyghurs, Afghanistan, Yemen and Ukraine in total.
The two state solution is a westerners solution that neither Israel or the Palestinians believe in. It would solve nothing. The injustice felt by the Palestinians would still be there and they would keep pushing to recover their lost homes and land.
The single state solution doesn't work if all people are to have an equal stake - because it wouldn't be a Jewish homeland for very long as the Palestinians would outnumber the Jews.
I don't have a lot of sympathy for the civilians in Gaza. They harbour and hide Hamas terrorists and provide them with succour and support. Two million of them and they don't know who Hamas are? Or where they have the rockets? Or where they hide hostages? Pull the other one. I don't want to see children hurt but they put their own children in harms way by not stopping what has happened. I suspect a lot of them actually support what happened on 7th October. So for me the sooner Israel pushes them all out of Israel it can focus on securing it's external borders without having to look over it's shoulder at the evil within.

I don't think you work for the idf for even that nefandous body would think thrice before employing a fuckwit like you

 

[brogdale]

I don't think you work for the idf for even that nefandous body would think thrice before employing a fuckwit like you

Any poster unable to distinguish between a state and the people that happen to live under its jurisdiction will offer nothing to this thread.

 

[Gramsci]

Occasionally, the graun gets it right

The thousands calling for a ceasefire and peace deserve better than abuse and belittlement | Aditya Chakrabortty

Politicians and much of the media ignore, stereotype and demonise protestors. This lack of engagement is a risk to us all, says Guardian columnist Aditya Chakrabortty

www.theguardian.com

The Labour leadership had no grasp of their own grassroots’ feelings, just as the press has shown no curiosity about the hundreds of thousands of people – often strikingly young – taking to the streets. The commentators would rather vilify those protesting at the slaughter of Palestinian babies than find out who they are and what’s driving them.

He is one of the best columnists in Guardian.

This is spot on:

It is the same strategy adopted with the protesters against Iraq, enthusiasts for Scottish independence, voters for Brexit, or supporters of Jeremy Corbyn. Ignore, stereotype, then demonise.

Yet if a liberal democracy is to live, it cannot keep marginalising those it believes hold the

wrong views

Starmer in particular thought he had it all sewn up. Support for Palestinian rights was smeared with accusations of being anti Semitic. The usual suspects. He had returned the party to ( tbf Labour party supported Zionism from it's early days) its original position of strongly supporting Israel.

The article notes it hasn't just been the usual subjects but a swathe of opinion from Muslim labour voters who've been ignored over concerns for Palestinians. He and his ilk in the party just don't get it.

It's what I saw on the demos. They aren't just trade union banners or political groups but whole families coming with home made placards.

Even now I don't see their voices much in media.

 

[Pickman's model]

Any poster unable to distinguish between a state and the people that happen to live under its jurisdiction will offer nothing to this thread.

 

[Pickman's model]

He is one of the best columnists in Guardian.

This is spot on:



Starmer in particular thought he had it all sewn up. Support for Palestinian rights was smeared with accusations of being anti Semitic. The usual suspects. He had returned the party to ( tbf Labour party supported Zionism from it's early days) its original position of strongly supporting Israel.

The article notes it hasn't just been the usual subjects but a swathe of opinion from Muslim labour voters who've been ignored over concerns for Palestinians. He and his ilk in the party just don't get it.

It's what I saw on the demos. They aren't just trade union banners or political groups but whole families coming with home made placards.

Even now I don't see their voices much in media.

It's this sort of thing that led galloway etc to set up ruc. We've been talking about labour taking support for granted for many years but what's really different now is the number of elected members who've found a backbone

 

[ElizabethofYork]

They should be thread banned for the simple reason they’re doing nothing but attacking other posters and turned this thread into a toxic mess…

It was a toxic mess long before that.

 

[brogdale]

It was a toxic mess long before that.

Some threads reflect their subject matter, no?

 

[prunus]

13mins 12 secs to 13mins 54secs



This is an interview with Lord Beaverbrook’s son. Beaverbrook is the one that thought up the propaganda campaign “Saucepans for Spitfires”. Here his son confirms that.

That interview snippet doesn’t say what you seem to think it says.

Anyway, not going to engage on this any more, it’s off topic.

 

[two sheds]

It's this sort of thing that led galloway etc to set up ruc. We've been talking about labour taking support for granted for many years but what's really different now is the number of elected members who've found a backbone

Unfortunately resigning (and I don't blame them obviously) means they aren't Labour members any more. Hopeful that there can be some resistance to Starmer within the party though.

 

[teqniq]

Bit of direct action, good on them:

 

[Johnny Vodka]

It was interesting in that Saudi TV interview with the hamas guy how he made no mention of any scripture, any religious talk at all, and compared the struggle of the Palestinians to that of the Soviet union against Hitler and of the Vietnamese people against the USA.

Almost as if they're not simply a bunch of "Islamic extremists" (there are not many salafi/wahhabi in Gaza really) but something more complicated than that, something that grew out of the secular Palestinan resistance and is still influenced by it.

Many people would smear Palestinians as religious loons, but much of the time (to me, at least) it looks like a struggle just to keep their homes and land and the little in life they have.

 

[The39thStep]

Israel don't really want to do this ground invasion. They'd have done it already if the gov were really convinced. The new coalition partners in the Unity government must be fighting hard against it. USA is obviously not into it. Netanyahu knows he's fucked once the war is over, so keeping it in this state of not having really "begun in earnest" (with ground invasion) delays the inevitable fall from power. That's what I think.

It's a complicated jigsaw to be sure and at times there are too many pieces. There have been some reports that the ground invasion has been delayed in order for the US to get some form of air support to protect its bases within the middle east, a suggestion that the US were shocked that Netanyahu doesn't have an end plan, Macrons suggestion to revive the anti-ISIS coalition to take on Hamas even though Iran played some part in the anti-ISIS coalition , that Netanyahu either wants to fight on two fronts and get the US involved in a war against Iran or that he wants to build up enough military and diplomatic support in case Iran or through its proxy Hezbollah attack. I've even seen some claim that nerve gas will be used in the tunnels supervised by the US.

If Netanyahu's narrative is that the strategic objective is targeting Hamas and that Hamas has to be destroyed then that is indeed what he will be judged on.

 

[Pickman's model]

I've even seen some claim that nerve gas will be used in the tunnels supervised by the US.

this (international working group on subterranean warfare, as you can see it's an israeli site) https://www.runi.ac.il/en/research-institutes/government/subtwg/ and this Underground Nightmare: Hamas Tunnels and the Wicked Problem Facing the IDF - Modern War Institute plus the other stuff i posted on subterranean operations earlier in the thread might be useful. or at least interesting

 

[likesfish]

It's got to be time to do away with the veto at the UN security council, tonight there's two votes, one on a US proposal calling for a 'pause' in fighting to allow aid to flow, which will be vetoed by Russia, because they have put forward a proposal calling for a 'ceasefire' for the same reason, which the US will veto.

The VETO at the UN Security Council works as intended it's not designed to be nice it's designed so the 5 states with Strategic Nuclear aresnals aren't backed into a corner hence the permanent members get the final say

The Majority of states in the UN are non Democratic they don't represent the people the repute to govern 72 countries are broadly Democratic although the majority are flawed the US is counted as a flawed democracy UK as fully democratic. 95 are counted as hybred or full on authoritarian

The UN is a talking shop as a global parliament it’s horribly dysfunctiol.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Just watched that cunt Oliver Dowden being interviewed on telly. Kept repeating how Israel had a right to defend itself, and refused to condemn the slaughter of innocent palestinians.

 

[Karl Masks]

Norman Finkelstein socks it to the no war but class war types

I'm not sure that description applies to Mate. He's also another Putin apologist. Beyond that I'm not sure how he socks it to those people

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

UK .. fully democratic.

I nearly reported you to the mods on that!