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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

Why am I not surprised?

 
Why am I not surprised?

Indeed. Their usual disgraceful behaviour.
 

Wide ranging discussion with Ofer Cassif. A Communist member of the Knesset who represents Hadash. A coalition of left groups.

Suspended for supporting the South Africa case against Israel for Genocide. Been called a traitor for that.

A Jewish Israeli whose stand against what he calls the moves to make Israel a fascist state are brave.

Interview goes into a lot of what is happening in Israeli society at this time and his views of the politics of the main parties.

Basically apart from his small party ( five member of Knesset) none of the main parties are opposing what is happening in Gaza.

There might be difference of opinion on tactics but apart from that nothing.

Israeli public opinion is split. Some want deal to get hostages back. But are not against the war as such. Some ( a smaller number) oppose the war as they oppose the genocide.

Whether one is in either group the moves to making Israel a fascist state mean the police crack down on one. He says in Israel there is fear of protesting. That the police are not the police any more but under direction of the fascist politicians ( his words when he is referring to the present government).

There are moves to ban a party such as his. People are being arrested for social media posts.

He says he is disappointed that the international community has done so little. Not put pressure on Israel. Given its in his words fascistic government they should not be supporting Israel state at this time.

Which imo was a good point.

He says in conjunction with other groups they are doing regular anti war demos and setting up dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians from Gaza.

He supports two state solution. Get impression a real one.

He talks of the lack of brave politicians who will compromise with Palestinians. On Palestinian side there are some. He mentioned Marwan Barghouti. In prison and was a leader in the Intifada.

He could not be drawn on what actual international pressure Israel should get. But in hindsight I think every word he says to media is being scrutinised and he's in enough trouble already.

He also talked about ( and this was pre Hamas attack) moves within Israel to shore up the right. In his words Israel is going towards civil war.

What I get from interview is that Israel as a state has been moving to the right. And he is not using the term fascist lightly.


 
In the interview Ofer Cassif talks about Smotrich "Decisive Plan" which he wrote as a policy proposal some time ago. How the right ha clear idea of what it wanted to do. And that Hamas attack is leading to it being mainstream and not fringe idea.

Article in plus 972 magazine on this


The full text of the Decisive Plan is here


My Google browser translated it.

It does make chilling reading. It is for Israeli audience. Worth reading what these politicians say to Israeli audience.

On other hand it comes from the Revisionist wing of Zionism and when reading it in a way its not that extreme in context of Zionist thought.

As with Revisionist Zionism its saying you want a Jewish state then this is what you need to do. And don't pretend its all going to be nice. This document is pre Hamas attack.

He says his belief in a Jewish state comes from his religious beliefs. But the plan is directed at secular people in Israel as well.

Fro him the idea of two state solution or any solution that recognises Palestinian statehood in some form is a mistake. There are two nationalisms and one has to lose. Better to get it done once and for all. Instead of years of conflict. Even if its managed.

A clear message that Palestinians aren't going to get a state and are not wanted in the borders of the old mandate area will lead to temporary upsurge in violence but IDF can deal with that.

He locates his plan in context of history of Israeli state and Zionism. Making clear he is not a fringe figure in Zionism.

He does not see the surrounding Arab countries as a problem with the present governments they have. Which is correct imo. Unfortunately. A future Greater Israel after annexing rest of mandate area can do deals with them.

So Palestinians will have three options

Population transfer- so called voluntary ( which is old Zionist idea)

Living in Israeli annexed West Bank with civil but not political rights ( which isn't new idea)

Refusing the annexation and fighting Israel. - to be ruthlessly put down by IDF

He elaborates in article on the specifics of how to do this.

Pay Palestinians to emigrate.

In annexed areas allow limited self government of the small areas where Palestinians will remain. But do not make them Israeli citizens. Self government but not vote for Knesset. With possible citizenship if a Palestinian shows loyalty to Israeli state at some time in future. He pointed out that when Israel state was established Palestinians remaining were under military rule for decades.

He says Arabs are a tribal people not suited to ( western ) style democracy.

That the Romans named the area Palestine and that the Arabs in the mandate area were recent arrivals. That a lot of area was underdeveloped and that Zionists made the desert bloom. So allowing some Arabs to remain is doing them a favour. They are better off in a new larger Israel. Despite only having civil rights better off than in other Arab countries.

This is standard Zionist and Israeli thinking on Arabs.

He believes a strong hand is needed so that Palestinians give up. Lose hope and leave. Unless this is done there will always be conflict. So its better to deal with this now than let it drag on

So in order to do it more facts on the ground. Settlement building. And push to get international community to accept this as the reality.

Reading the document and its not imo that out of line with a lot of Zionist thinking and actions in the past.
 
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Israel will never allow Palestinians to live with their dignity and sovereignty intact
and will forever taunt, humiliate and provoke them into retaliation.

Ceasefire? There has never been a ceasefire in anything but name between Israel and Palestine, just degrees of conflict.
 
No, it wouldn't end. It might well change, but unpredictably. Israel won't let Gaza be, nor Lebanon, nor the West Bank.
What will it take for Israel to stop fighting in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon?

I just want to understand what it is they truly want.
Is it more land? Is it guaranteed peace with those areas?
What do you think they really want and what could realistically be agreed on to end this war. Because there must be zero appetite amongst ordinary people in all these areas for any war.

I hope they all start to see how futile all of this really is. There are no winners when thousands of children die.

There is currently a ceasefire being tabled in Qatar, where Hamas are offering the return of 34 hostages.

34.. out of 100 or so? I mean what are they hanging on to them for at this stage? It's completely senseless. All of it. The Israelis blasting everyone to bits and Hamas hanging on to hostages that are probably a mix of dead bodies, maimed, or mentally and physically destroyed children, women and men.

It just really makes me think..why do we live in a world where ordinary people who just want to live their lives can have everything destroyed by power hungry psychopaths.
 
What will it take for Israel to stop fighting in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon?

I just want to understand what it is they truly want.
Is it more land? Is it guaranteed peace with those areas?
What do you think they really want and what could realistically be agreed on to end this war. Because there must be zero appetite amongst ordinary people in all these areas for any war.

I hope they all start to see how futile all of this really is. There are no winners when thousands of children die.



34.. out of 100 or so? I mean what are they hanging on to them for at this stage? It's completely senseless. All of it. The Israelis blasting everyone to bits and Hamas hanging on to hostages that are probably a mix of dead bodies, maimed, or mentally and physically destroyed children, women and men.

It just really makes me think..why do we live in a world where ordinary people who just want to live their lives can have everything destroyed by power hungry psychopaths.


As I posted above the now ruling government in Israel is in effect following The so called Decisive Plan written by Smotrich. Which is a greater Israel of Gaza , West Bank and Golan heights with as few Palestinians as possible.

The West Bank has over years been taken gradually with more settlement building. Same is now being planned in Golan heights.

So to answer your question- it's more land.

Zionism= land plus demographics

Given support of USA and other governments like in UK it's not unrealistic plan in long term.
 
As I posted above the now ruling government in Israel is in effect following The so called Decisive Plan written by Smotrich. Which is a greater Israel of Gaza , West Bank and Golan

As I posted above the now ruling government in Israel is in effect following The so called Decisive Plan written by Smotrich. Which is a greater Israel of Gaza , West Bank and Golan heights with as few Palestinians as possible.

The West Bank has over years been taken gradually with more settlement building. Same is now being planned in Golan heights.

So to answer your question- it's more land.

Zionism= land plus demographics

Given support of USA and other governments like in UK it's not unrealistic plan in long term.
Liked for info. Not the plan.
 
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