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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion



Listened to Helen Hayes MP on the BBC.

Asked about Keir Starmer comments and she said she was glad he had "clarified" them

She is what Id call middle of the road non offensive Labour. So does trot out things like attack by Hamas was terror. But every time she mentions Gaza its a "humanitarian catastrophe" Which makes it sound like the consequences of an earthquake. Not deliberate bombing.

Its not that she says anything nasty. Far from it she is a nice liberal. However its this way of framing the conflict which diminishes what is happening.

I thought the head of UN Antonio Guterres speech was more to the point and talked about the context.

Clinking on her link to her visit to Palestine and she does say more. But her public pronouncements leave this out.
 
Bit of a derail, but Russian government policy in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, Chinese government policy in Tibet and Xinjiang is precisely right now one of encouraging settlement in areas where the ethnic balance is being changed in favour of the occupying power.

Actually your right on China.Also Uyghurs are getting same treatment with ethnic chinese being encouraged there
 


Listened to Helen Hayes MP on the BBC.

Asked about Keir Starmer comments and she said she was glad he had "clarified" them

She is what Id call middle of the road non offensive Labour. So does trot out things like attack by Hamas was terror. But every time she mentions Gaza its a "humanitarian catastrophe" Which makes it sound like the consequences of an earthquake. Not deliberate bombing.

Its not that she says anything nasty. Far from it she is a nice liberal. However its this way of framing the conflict which diminishes what is happening.

I thought the head of UN Antonio Guterres speech was more to the point and talked about the context.

Clinking on her link to her visit to Palestine and she does say more. But her public pronouncements leave this out.

It's quite simple for me now. Any politician not at the very least calling for an immediate ceasefire can fuck the fuck off.
 
She could always resign from the front bench in protest....

Having dealt with her a few times on local stuff ( and she takes an interest in local issues) she believes what she is saying.

If you pointed out to her that its not a human catastrophe but Israeli military bombing and that the two state solution never worked out as Israel governments didn't want it and US wasn't going to put pressure on Israel she would probably think your one of the out to lunch Trots who needs to be humoured.
 
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Some predictions of Israeli plans for Gaza.

Israel may choose to do this by slicing up the Gaza Strip; instead of one large prison, in which Israel has kept two million Palestinians since 2007, it will build several smaller prison cells. Using its technology and surveillance systems, it could then identify Hamas operatives through biometric information, photographs, information from collaborators, and interrogation of prisoners.

Initially, Israel will try to implement this policy in the northern Gaza Strip. In the southern strip, where the army ordered residents of the north to evacuate to, Israel could target Hamas members on a more specific basis. The government apparently hopes that the Israeli hostages are being held in the north, and that it will be able to reach most of them alive. In general, this is uncertain.

Alongside the massive forced population transfer, Israel will have to go from house to house in northern Gaza while imposing curfews on certain areas. This will likely be its method of finding Hamas members with minimal losses to Israeli forces. Even if the confrontation with Hezbollah in Lebanon stays confined to Israel’s northern border, this method in Gaza will surely take months.

A war of attrition is liable to develop in the northern strip, and it is uncertain whether the Israelis who were evacuated from the Gaza border region will be able to return to their homes. Israel would eventually have to take over the management of northern Gaza. The southern strip, Israel apparently hopes, will be managed by an international body comprising members of Qatar, Egypt, the UN, and other international aid agencies.

One can expect Israel’s national-religious government to push for the establishment of settlements in the northern Gaza Strip, ostensibly for “security reasons,” meaning, control.
 
Yet another emergency meeting of the un

Curiously "Members who have not paid their dues aren't allowed to vote in General Assembly meetings like this, but Mr. Francis agreed by general consent to allow those in arrears a waiver, so they can take part."

You would have thought they could have set up a standing order
 
Curiously "Members who have not paid their dues aren't allowed to vote in General Assembly meetings like this, but Mr. Francis agreed by general consent to allow those in arrears a waiver, so they can take part."

You would have thought they could have set up a standing order
or even direct debit
 
Actually your right on China.Also Uyghurs are getting same treatment with ethnic chinese being encouraged there

Yes, it’s strange how so many countries who are perennially critical of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians are happy to turn a blind eye to the neo-colonialists in Africa who are rounding up Muslims back home and torturing them in massive slave labour camps. I guess the Palestinian cause is politically expedient for them, and the Uyghurs quite the opposite.
 
HazeyCosmic and Platinumsage are apologists for war crimes, that is beyond dispute.

However they fulfil a useful contribution here:

1. They remind us of the arguments being used by Western Govts and others to justify such crimes: know thine enemy is a valuable precept.
2. In this forum (unlike the mainstream media) there is an ability to answer them back. Which is valuable both in itself but also because those responding to them bring to all our attention relevant items we might have missed
3. Yes their language and sentiments are vile but nothing near as vile as what the IDF are actually doing: so lets all keep these things in perspective
4. Ironically, it is not hatred of Jews that is keeping this thread so full of posts as Hazy alleged, but to an extent the contributions of himself and platinumsage.

Inasmuch as the IDF are wallowing in a gutter full of blood, we should try here not to descend to their apologists level, which is I surmise in large part the intention of their routinely provocative posts.

Just a few thoughts
 
I hope the ICC are paying attention:



The family of their Arabic correspondent has just been wiped out. Like fuck they're going to tone anything down.

He was a lot more than their Arabic correspondent. He was their chief of bureau and main correspondent in Gaza.

Blinken's request to Qatar only came out a couple of days ago here, but it was made nearly 2 weeks ago. During this time, AJ did not tone down anything. AJ's correspondent's family were, it appears, deliberately targeted having moved to the 'safety' of the south.

Targeting the wives and children of journalists might just be seen by some as terrorism.
 
He was a lot more than their Arabic correspondent. He was their chief of bureau and main correspondent in Gaza.

Blinken's request to Qatar only came out a couple of days ago here, but it was made nearly 2 weeks ago. During this time, AJ did not tone down anything. AJ's correspondent's family were, it appears, deliberately targeted having moved to the 'safety' of the south.

Targeting the wives and children of journalists might just be seen as some as terrorism.

It's without doubt terrorism. There can be no justification for targeting journalists, never mind their families. Again, I wonder what stance the likes of Sunak, Biden and Starmer would take on this.
 
HazeyCosmic and Platinumsage are apologists for war crimes, that is beyond dispute.

However they fulfil a useful contribution here:

1. They remind us of the arguments being used by Western Govts and others to justify such crimes: know thine enemy is a valuable precept.
2. In this forum (unlike the mainstream media) there is an ability to answer them back. Which is valuable both in itself but also because those responding to them bring to all our attention relevant items we might have missed
3. Yes their language and sentiments are vile but nothing near as vile as what the IDF are actually doing: so lets all keep these things in perspective
4. Ironically, it is not hatred of Jews that is keeping this thread so full of posts as Hazy alleged, but to an extent the contributions of himself and platinumsage.

Inasmuch as the IDF are wallowing in a gutter full of blood, we should try here not to descend to their apologists level, which is I surmise in large part the intention of their routinely provocative posts.

Just a few thoughts

All you've managed to say on the massacre of Jews is "It is not for me to justify what Hamas has done, but..."

Are you adding yourself to the vile club?
 


Found this by Tareq Baconi. An academic he has written about Hamas. This is short to the point history of Hamas.

For those following all this thread a lot of what he says isn't new.

Hamas came out of the Muslim Brotherhood Palestinian section. Who before this were not involved in politics. More into preaching and education of Muslims.

Hamas came about due to the Intifada. As Muslim Brotherhood they thought they had to reform people to make them good Muslims and then become political He says they stood this on its head. They are a political organisation with an armed wing. Nationalist who see armed struggle as way too free Palestine.

They took part in the elections to Gaza and West Bank in 2006. Won.

His analysis is that they are an organisation that learn and adapt. The original charter was full of anti semitic references. This was superceded later on. Present position is that they distinguish between Jews and Zionists. There argument is with Zionists.

At various times they have put out feelers for talks. Offers of negotiation were rebuffed . The basic way they were treated by US and Israel when they won elections was to not deal with them and isolate them.

They have tried popular mobilization. The marches to the fences surrounding Gaza a few years ago. Non violent action. He says the Isreali response to any protest like this is to militaries it. Many unarmed people were shot and killed by snipers or had limbs amputated. Medical personal and journalists were targeted.

Military tactics and politics go together in Israel. The Israeli way of dealing with Hamas and the large population of Gaza was to put them under siege. Israel controls everything that goes in and out. With Hamas managing the open air prison.

This suited the Israeli military/ politicians. It was a policy of containment. Every now and then the military would "mow the grass" Do limited attack to decrease Hamas military capabilities.

They made mistake this would work. Hamas would resign to be in control of Gaza. And be contained.

What they didn't foresee was Hamas military wing breaking out and attacking Israel itself.

So he's saying Hamas arent mad / not ISIS/ Islamic but willing to support nationalist struggle/ have been willing to negotiate.

He did say its hard to know support for Hamas now. But recent polls he looked at prior to this attack looked good for Hamas.

Dealing with the underlying grievances and talks were only way forward. Not militarising it as Israel governments / military have done. A political not military solution.

Israel policy of containment and not doing serious talks will mean the conflict will continue.

All in all the context from this view is that Hamas tried everything else and it did not work.
 
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...AJ's correspondent's family were, it appears, deliberately targeted having moved to the 'safety' of the south.

Targeting the wives and children of journalists might just be seen by some as terrorism.

I certainly don't want to come across as defending the IDF, and I think that more or less indiscriminate bombing of an area that you've previously ordered people to move to for their own safety comes close enough to terrorism that I'm not going to quibble, but is there any substantive reason to suggest that the family were deliberately targeted, rather than just being a few of the many casualities of indiscriminate bombing of civilians?
 
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