Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
When you've been elected meme supervisor let me know.
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
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A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
TBF it's quite a good one. It makes a good point in a darkly funny way.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't say it is silly to compare Ukrainian and Palestine.
They are different conflicts.
A founding act of the State of Israel was the expulsion of Palestinians from their land. Its a settler colonial state. The expulsion of the people who live their for another group. What the historian Ilan Pappe says constitutes ethnic cleansing.
Ukraine is a state that is being invaded by a larger state which wants to incorporate it into its own. But not expell the existing population.
However both Ukrainians and Palestinians have a right to resist occupation.
I dont think saying this should be controversial.
So the argument is about methods of those involved in the conflict and how to support those opposing occupation. Not the fact they have right to resist.
As well as reading Ilan Pappe The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine Ive recently read The Hundred Years War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi.
Ive have not been able to find anything by Rashid Khalidi about the present situation. In his book he describes the various ways Palestinians have been expelled from their land. Its been an ongoing process. Whatever Israel government is in power. An ongoing act of violence by Israel that does not always make the headlines.
The short of it is ( at time of writing book) he argues for non violent resistance ( non violent in relative terms). The Intifada being the prime example of bottom up resistance by Palestinians. He is quite critical of established resistance like PLO at times in the book.
Along with this more lobbying of western people in US and here. To counter Israeli lobbying. Which he sees as a weakness of Palestine
Violent resistance ( his view when he wrote the book) is no longer a viable strategy. Given Israel is so well armed. Also that , as in this thread, people on the outside can point and say its just terrorism.
To add - one way in this country too support non violent resistance is to support BDS. Which this government is trying to ban.
Reading history is important. As Kevbad the Bad posted ( which reminded my of my reading)
www.simonandschuster.com
They are different conflicts.
A founding act of the State of Israel was the expulsion of Palestinians from their land. Its a settler colonial state. The expulsion of the people who live their for another group. What the historian Ilan Pappe says constitutes ethnic cleansing.
Ukraine is a state that is being invaded by a larger state which wants to incorporate it into its own. But not expell the existing population.
However both Ukrainians and Palestinians have a right to resist occupation.
I dont think saying this should be controversial.
So the argument is about methods of those involved in the conflict and how to support those opposing occupation. Not the fact they have right to resist.
As well as reading Ilan Pappe The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine Ive recently read The Hundred Years War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi.
Ive have not been able to find anything by Rashid Khalidi about the present situation. In his book he describes the various ways Palestinians have been expelled from their land. Its been an ongoing process. Whatever Israel government is in power. An ongoing act of violence by Israel that does not always make the headlines.
The short of it is ( at time of writing book) he argues for non violent resistance ( non violent in relative terms). The Intifada being the prime example of bottom up resistance by Palestinians. He is quite critical of established resistance like PLO at times in the book.
Along with this more lobbying of western people in US and here. To counter Israeli lobbying. Which he sees as a weakness of Palestine
Violent resistance ( his view when he wrote the book) is no longer a viable strategy. Given Israel is so well armed. Also that , as in this thread, people on the outside can point and say its just terrorism.
To add - one way in this country too support non violent resistance is to support BDS. Which this government is trying to ban.
Reading history is important. As Kevbad the Bad posted ( which reminded my of my reading)
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
The book that is providing a storm of controversy, from ‘Israel’s bravest historian’ (John Pilger)Renowned Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe's groundbr...
www.simonandschuster.com
Last edited:
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
You used both words and a meme for those who are fond of a tl:dr summary so I salute you for that
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
Don't do this, there are people reading here who have lived there, are from there, or who visit regularly. Your one or two visits doesn't give you special insight.
Riklet
procrastinación
At least 600 Israelis killed (Israeli media), many more missing, and Israel still hasnt repulsed Hamas attacks. It's still fighting in Israel proper for the first time in over 50 years.
When people ask what Hamas seeks to gain from this It's pretty obvious. A return to the 1967 border lines as a minimum.
When people ask what Hamas seeks to gain from this It's pretty obvious. A return to the 1967 border lines as a minimum.
ska invita
back on the other side
Regarding terrorism v legitimate war techniques, I doubt there has ever been a modern war fought where any side didn't use terrorist techniques also. Listen to personal experienced accounts of SAS Ben Griffin talk about what he and British army did in Iraq... explicit terrorism and torture on random inoccent civilians.
Looking for moral superiority between warring parties results in none found. Of course in Britain there is a common superiority default to fantasies of fair play and cricket metaphors.
Of course there are real differences in any situation, but looking for moral superiority won't turn up any
Looking for moral superiority between warring parties results in none found. Of course in Britain there is a common superiority default to fantasies of fair play and cricket metaphors.
Of course there are real differences in any situation, but looking for moral superiority won't turn up any
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Not by anyone with the first idea of history, whatever their political views.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Yesterday morning there was fighting in about 45 locations, now it's about 20. The 20/25 locations where fighting has stopped isn't because the Israelis are hanging about outside...
If Hamas want a return to the 67 borders - or would accept it through gritted teeth at the end of a negotiated settlement - they've managed to hide it pretty well over the last couple of decades.
The human shielding thing is an Israeli propaganda myth. In the aftermath of Cast Lead there was a HRW (iirc) investigation into it and found that the only human shielding was on the Israeli side. Palestinian fighters are fighting from dense urban areas. I don't blame for not standing in the middle of a field saying "please shoot me".
But on the broader point about class war, what exactly is the political economy of Gaza? Its economy is largely an economy dependent on aid, there's not much in terms of a means of production to seize. A lot of the workers work or did work in Israel and a huge number have no work at all. The immediate concern is the blockade/siege and it's Hamas who have the means to resist. If you want to see what the main leftist group on the ground, the PFLP, are saying you can see it here, but I don't think you'll like it one little bit.
And yes this is going to be messy. It would be great if the attack was more disciplined and they had only taken hostages without attacking civilians, but that's not where we're at.
This is nothing to do with fighting for some sort of final settlement.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
I know....
Just to add some context - since 2005 only 168 Israelis have been killed in the conflict. Looks like we are getting on to 4x the amount killed in 18 years in only a couple of days.
I'm genuinely astonished at the scale of it, I expected all the militants to have been killed or returned to Gaza now but fighting continues. I guess IDF and Mossad got complacent?
I have a very bad feeling about where this us going - the Israeli response is going to be unprecedented. I dread to think about what will happen to the Gaza Strip.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
In this specific circumstance it is not. They have taken civilian hostages, there's no reason to do that other than to create leverage against more brutal reprisals. Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm supportive of the Israeli State take more generally.
One government attacking another to extract concessions is not class war. That doesn't mean resistance is unjustified, but there is a complete absence of class war (or much related theory at all, for that matter) in this theatre of conflict.
It's leverage for prisoner swaps. I know it's horrible but I'm very glad to see it happening.
Well yes. Class war needs a material basis.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Not every hostage-taking will be a strategic move, there are other reasons to take them, for example so they can be paraded around before being raped and murdered. There’s no point pretending that everyone involved is doing the minimum possible to protect their own people.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
I'd not be in the least surprised if fighters on either side are committing rape and/or putting on public displays of brutality. War is war, troops inflict horror for both personal and ordered reasons and often it's impossible to tell which is which. But I've been talking more in terms of reasoning and the intentions from the leaderships on either side, which might include a certain tolerance of horror but I don't see it being particularly useful for them to do as policy. Though that said, speculation from some dude in the UK about what's in the minds of the Hamas leadership is unlikely to throw up many useful insights.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
so if you haven't got the latest death tech it's perfectly ok to shoot children in the face and hunt ravers with a machine gun?
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
More news from the peace festival:
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
I imagine the chance of catching and killing a large number of foreign nationals pushed this quite high up the target list.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Good to see you speaking up for the people of Gaza and their willingness to be murdered by the IDF or be starved to death.
I'm sure there may be some who crave to be martyred for the glorious cause for which you think they should be martyred.
However, my suspicion is that many others do not relish such a heroic death either for themselves or for their children, parents, partners, siblings or friends.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
They just want it set up so they can deport all the Uyghers to it…
likesfish
You can't park here sir
so if you haven't got the latest death tech it's perfectly ok to shoot children in the face and hunt ravers with a machine gun?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Tommy Tiny Tears.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Thats for me to say not you
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