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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

UN (specifically UNRWA, the aid and development agency for Palestine) reporting 9 of their staffers have been killed in Gaza (by air strikes) since saturday:


Tweet embedded by guardian reads:

9 of our @UN staffers have been killed in airstrikes in#GazaStrip since Saturday.“The protection of civilians is paramount, including in times of conflict. They should be protected in accordance with the laws of war.” @JulietteTouma @AP

AP news link from same:

(e2a: though it just links to AP feed)

e2a:

Also their (graun) report on the massacre at Kfar aza kibbutz, though not sure it adds a great deal to what has been discussed already. Relentlessly grim.
 
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Genocidal fascist butcher revels in mass murder. Anybody who trots out unqualified phrases like 'Israel has a right to defend itself' is 100% complicit in supporting these terrorist war crimes

 
Everything the US is doing is entirely in keeping with the administration's two main objectives:
  • Parade Biden's decisiveness defending US citizens/US allies/a historic US identity touchstone in front of the US public
  • Demonstrate in no uncertain terms to other Middle Eastern players that opportunism while Israel's in difficulties is not on the table
Both of which can be achieved with a bit of spectacle by name dropping "we're sending a carrier and special forces", regardless of whether it makes much logistical sense.

There's always a carrier on station there anyway, at sea, not docked in a port somewhere, for this reason. The only difference between a normal peace time cruise in the Mediterranean and one during conflict is the amount of bombs dropped and flights launched. It being announced in the news is meant to send a message to higher level players like Iran. Usually, movements like this don't make the news.
 
The Mail later changed 'deployed' to 'put on standby,' possibly to reflect the fact even the anonymous sources it quoted as having spoken to a different outlet did not claim these forces were being sent to the area
I'd be astonished if they don't have some handy sof in Europe plus there's always centcom too.
 
Really, you assume that the Daily Mail is privy to such stuff, and its not the Mail just making up shit?

I would be surprised if US SF did any kinetic stuff - there's going to be a compromise between Israeli SF units being overstretched to deal with all the different tasks, and the absolute gangfuck of slotting US units into an Israeli structure that's at war, and is full of newly called-up reservists - and the precedent being set that has every other state and his dog asking the Israelis to allow their SF units to come and rescue their nationals. It's begging for chaos with your bowl out, and I rather doubt the Israeli's want to play.

There will be US dets going to Israel - some will be technical support to get the Israelis up to speed on some of the stuff the US is providing, and some will be SF bolstering the embassy security teams.

Perhaps Israel will ask for/reluctantly accept US SF for door kicking - possibly as a price of the depth of US support, but a) I doubt it, and b) if it does happen, it will be very small scale stuff.
Reckon the Americans will be very interested in idf tunnel ops, too
 
"Brave" IDF reservists like the poor sods have a choice :rolleyes:
Hamas has managed a once in the lifetime strike against Israel and are going to get annihilated much like all quaida did and just like the deathtoll in Afghanistan Gaza is going to pay a horrorific price the chances of getting any of the hostages back is slim. Israeli high Command may only ready have written them off . Hamas is an atrocity machine taking a leaf out the IS playbook the chances of any hostage swap is probably slim

I suppouse we should be grateful Benny hasn't decided to invade morrocco :eek:
 
There’s quite a few that don’t realize where the side they stand on comes from and how they are been told what to think.
And will defend it for it maintains a system beneficial only to themselves.
 

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"Brave" IDF reservists like the poor sods have a choice :rolleyes:
Hamas has managed a once in the lifetime strike against Israel and are going to get annihilated much like all quaida did and just like the deathtoll in Afghanistan Gaza is going to pay a horrorific price the chances of getting any of the hostages back is slim. Israeli high Command may only ready have written them off . Hamas is an atrocity machine taking a leaf out the IS playbook the chances of any hostage swap is probably slim

Hamas and the IDF have taken part in prisoner swaps in the past. Israel is typically very keen to get its people back, though in this situation, I agree things could be v different. Esp. with emotions running so high. Will take a good while for Hamas even to take full account of who they have, their condition, and especially their potential value as bargaining chips. Things may move too fast for that.
 
When you consider how strong the Dems are (rightly) on pointing out past injustices to black Americans, it's weird how the same can't be afforded to the Palestinians.

Genocidal fascist butcher revels in mass murder. Anybody who trots out unqualified phrases like 'Israel has a right to defend itself' is 100% complicit in supporting these terrorist war crimes


The behavior of most of the Western news media feels like the run up to the Iraq invasion. Most have turned themselves into a propaganda arm of the Netanyahu government, like they were propagandists for the Bush/Blair administrations. Poor little Israel and evil Hamas. Israel is portrayed as the innocent victim as usual.
 
I don't think it is so surprising that people are ending up with contradictory positions. The armed resistance has been hijacked by Islamists, and 'Destroy Israel' is never going to produce anything other than further misery. It is hard not to feel despair. But I do think it is important to recognise that Hamas are not the answer to any sensible question. Somehow 'neither Zionist nor Islamist' needs to be the right position for people on all sides to talk to one another. But we are currently moving away from that.

I think people are coming to contradictory positions and this is to be expected on such a...visceral... subject. I think everyone should try to be patient with each other.

But I'm going to disagree with you. I think the situation in Gaza is so degraded and hopeless that nobody including Hamas are thinking about destroying Israel or any broad resolution to the conflict. The ultimate goal is ending the blockade, prisoner swaps, being allowed to fish, build a port, build an airport etc.
 
I've just read Michael McDowell in today's Irish Times - and for those of you who don't know him, this guy was a Progressive Democrat minister for justice back in the late '90s/early noughties, when his small PD party was in coalition with Fianna Fail. In that position he was the hardest of hard right law and order men, something he holds to today. And even he seems seriously disturbed by what is implied in Netanyahu's promise of a retaliatory blow that will "echo down the generations".

"There is a risk that Netanyahu will unleash such terrible destruction by air and land on Gaza that tens of thousands of innocent humans will die" - this is Ireland's leading arch-conservative neoliberal saying this!
 
I think people are coming to contradictory positions and this is to be expected on such a...visceral... subject. I think everyone should try to be patient with each other.

But I'm going to disagree with you. I think the situation in Gaza is so degraded and hopeless that nobody including Hamas are thinking about destroying Israel or any broad resolution to the conflict. The ultimate goal is ending the blockade, prisoner swaps, being allowed to fish, build a port, build an airport etc.
None of that is going to happen any time soon. Or ever.
 
I've just read Michael McDowell in today's Irish Times - and for those of you who don't know him, this guy was a Progressive Democrat minister for justice back in the late '90s/early noughties, when his small PD party was in coalition with Fianna Fail. In that position he was the hardest of hard right law and order men, something he holds to today. And even he seems seriously disturbed by what is implied in Netanyahu's promise of a retaliatory blow that will "echo down the generations".

"There is a risk that Netanyahu will unleash such terrible destruction by air and land on Gaza that tens of thousands of innocent humans will die" - this is Ireland's leading arch-conservative neoliberal saying this!
No doubt at that point he ( Netanyahu) will still have the full support of some now in the Labour front bench
 
More politicians striking the right balance (IMO).


If you read that you would think Gaza wasn't getting bombed into the stone age or had its electricity and water cut off. It's a carte blanche condemnation of anyone protesting a life and death situation for hundreds of thousands of people.

[I don't doubt there were some displays of anti-semitism at these protest. There usually is.]
 
If you read that you would think Gaza wasn't getting bombed into the stone age or had its electricity and water cut off. It's a carte blanche condemnation of anyone protesting a life and death situation for hundreds of thousands of people.

[I don't doubt there were some displays of anti-semitism at these protest. There usually is.]
Yeah, there's usually some anti-semitism here and there - it's no big deal, it won't damage the cause in any significant way. What's a little anti-semitism between friends?
 
This is the bit which is self-defeating, imv. For all her many faults AOC has spent the last five years quite loudly decrying Israel's behaviour and outright calling it apartheid. She's not someone with zero history other than criticising Hamas troops. But what she was saying about the rally is that it's not actually helping the aim of ending that apartheid if you parade around celebrating Hamas troops doing nasty shit. Which is not particularly contentious, it's obviously fucking stupid to celebrate acts of horror while trying to persuade normal people of your point of view.
 
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