Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[little_legs]

"Despite Gallant's dismissal: the IDF will send out draft orders to 7000 haredim on Sunday"

 

[mojo pixy]

I can't see how this can be anything other than zero-sum.

I get what you mean, but it really has to be more than that. This is why I believe this issue more than any other issue except climate change, is the key issue of our age. If this can be fixed, any conflict can be fixed.

Details, I'm light on tbh. Maybe it requires more death first. A lot more (that's the likelihood IMO). Maybe it requires a fundamental change in human consciousness. The end of capitalism. The end of borders full stop. Maybe it just requires a new generation unburdened by the old assumptions of we who still tread the same old paths again and again, fruitlessly.

 

[PTK]

Maybe I'm just being a bit obtuse here, but how can any international dispute over land, not be a zero-sum "game"?

It is not an "international dispute".

 

[teqniq]

More complete impunity. Beirut bombed 13 times today:

 

[krtek a houby]

It is not an "international dispute".

Israel are acting against international law. The ICJ are looking into the genocide accusations. Israel are being armed by the UK, USA, Germany,
the regime has attacked Syria, Lebanon and Iran. Yemeni groups have attacked Israel-linked ships. Several countries have either cut ties with or recalled their Ambassadors from Israel.

 

[brogdale]

It is not an "international dispute".

Go on...

 

[klang]

Yemeni groups have attacked Israel-linked ships.

...and Israel itself.

On a side note - the houthis recently released a statement saying that their battle against Israel will continue even if the war in Gaza is stopped.
Also - Israel has been launching attacks on Yemen since at least July.


On another side note - it is estimated that there are about 400,000 people with Yemeni Jewish heritage in Israel.

It is estimated that there are only 5 Yemenites left in Yemen.

 

[Gramsci]

It is not an "international dispute".

Reminds of recent Ilan Pappe interview when he was asked about the international side of this.

He , from what I remember said , Iran/ Israel firing missiles at each other has resulted in few casualties compared to what has happened in Gaza,

In his view to much attention on this international / regional way to look at it distracts from the fundamental local issue of Israel occupying land it shouldn't.

So yes I think you bring up interesting point.

The actual dispute is over a relatively small amount of land. Its very important for those who live on that land.

Framing it as an international dispute can avert attention from the people this really affects.

 

[PTK]

Go on...

The conflict is not a conflict between states. It is an internal conflict.

 

[brogdale]

The conflict is not a conflict between states. It is an internal conflict.

Ah, OK...I see.

On the basis that 2 or more groups are fighting over Palestine?

 

[Gramsci]

Israel has missed US deadline to boost Gaza aid, UN agency says

But Israel says it has greatly increased deliveries since being warned of cuts to military assistance.

www.bbc.co.uk

The 30 day deadline the US gave Israel to improve aid supply has come.

So aid agencies saying Israel hasn't complied with US ultimatum and Israel says it is working towards that.

I'd like to hear what the US official response to this will be.

 

[brogdale]

Monstrous.

 

[brogdale]

Israel has missed US deadline to boost Gaza aid, UN agency says

But Israel says it has greatly increased deliveries since being warned of cuts to military assistance.

www.bbc.co.uk

The 30 day deadline the US gave Israel to improve aid supply has come.

So aid agencies saying Israel hasn't complied with US ultimatum and Israel says it is working towards that.

I'd like to hear what the US official response to this will be.

That'll be fuck all.

 

[brogdale]

Btw, only C4News Ciaran Jenkins just did a very clear, graphical fact-check on the issue of the US determined aid truck target. Unsurprisingly, even using the Israeli's own, fabricated numbers, the target was not met some margin.

 

[Gramsci]

Aid to Gaza falls to lowest level in 11 months despite US ultimatum to Israel

US government wrote to Israel a month ago threatening sanctions if there was no increase in humanitarian supplies

www.theguardian.com

Read this in morning.

Little aid is coming through.

It looks like in past few days Israel has made some concessions.

Israel also blames Hamas and armed gangs for looting.

However it looks to me that if US had not sent this letter Israel would not have done any concessions at all.

Aid agencies say the bureaucracy that Israel has set up means aid gets held up. Convoys get refused entry to Gaza.

 

[little_legs]

Israel has missed US deadline to boost Gaza aid, UN agency says

But Israel says it has greatly increased deliveries since being warned of cuts to military assistance.

www.bbc.co.uk

The 30 day deadline the US gave Israel to improve aid supply has come.

So aid agencies saying Israel hasn't complied with US ultimatum and Israel says it is working towards that.

I'd like to hear what the US official response to this will be.

US says it will not limit Israel arms transfers after some improvements in flow of aid to Gaza

 

[Gramsci]

Just to remind people Israel has form on restricting food aid to Gaza

Israel forced to release study on Gaza blockade

An Israeli court forces the release of government research detailing the number of calories Palestinians in Gaza needed to consume to avoid malnutrition during Israel’s blockade.

www.bbc.co.uk

Israeli government officials now acknowledge the food restrictions were partly intended to put pressure on Hamas by making the lives of people in Gaza difficult, says the BBC's Jon Donnison in Gaza City.

In 2006, Israeli government adviser Dov Weisglass was widely quoted as having said: "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger."

The blockade was collective punishment for voting for Hamas.

 

[brogdale]

US says it will not limit Israel arms transfers after some improvements in flow of aid to Gaza

Shocked.

 

[Gramsci]

US says it will not limit Israel arms transfers after some improvements in flow of aid to Gaza

This is meaningless thing to say imo>

“We are not giving Israel a pass,” Patel said, adding that the steps Israel has taken have not yet made a significant enough difference. “We want to see the totality of the humanitarian situation improve, and we think some of these steps will allow the conditions for that to continue to progress.”

So Israel hasn't done what it was told to by US. But US thinks at some point in future these steps will bring progress.

I assume by that time Biden is on retirement and its up to Trump to follow this up.

 

[Gramsci]

All throughout past year Biden has shown himself to be a weak President. I'm wondering if this contributed to Democrats losing votes.

Its not about being for or against Israel. Its that Israel is supposed to be the junior partner reliant on US weapons. And Biden could have made red lines stick.

If I was American I would find it embarrassing that Biden , one of the most powerful men on the planet , has Netanyahu just taking the piss out of him for a year.

 

[Gramsci]

What sort of message does it say when an ultimation is not carried through?

Especially when its directed at a country run by far right racists. Gives them the impression they can get away with it.

 

[Gramsci]

This is why I avoid watching news sometimes.

 

[mojo pixy]

Just to remind people Israel has form on restricting food aid to Gaza

Israel forced to release study on Gaza blockade

An Israeli court forces the release of government research detailing the number of calories Palestinians in Gaza needed to consume to avoid malnutrition during Israel’s blockade.

www.bbc.co.uk

The blockade was collective punishment for voting for Hamas.

Hamas with whom Netanyahu collaborated from at the latest 2009 and probably the late 1990s all the way (it looks increasingly likely it will turn out) till October 6th 2023.

 

[brogdale]

I think we can only conclude that what is happening in Gaza conforms to US geopolitical desires.

 

[mojo pixy]

"Despite Gallant's dismissal: the IDF will send out draft orders to 7000 haredim on Sunday"

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-haredi-parties-say-pm-promised-them-katz-would-nix-new-batch-of-enlistment-orders/

I suspect it'll be cancelled. Interesting though if not, because it might provoke disobedience. which could piss off a substantial number of regular israelis who don't really fancy reserve service either but are having to do it. So, netanyahu is bound to overrule katz (the new defence minister)

Still, some internal instability in the state of Israel would probably be good just now.

Or, it might just be even worse.

 

[kabbes]

The conflict is not a conflict between states. It is an internal conflict.

A state isn’t a nation. It’s an international conflict, but you can argue about whether it is an interstate conflict.

 

[zahir]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-haredi-parties-say-pm-promised-them-katz-would-nix-new-batch-of-enlistment-orders/

I suspect it'll be cancelled. Interesting though if not, because it might provoke disobedience. which could piss off a substantial number of regular israelis who don't really fancy reserve service either but are having to do it. So, netanyahu is bound to overrule katz (the new defence minister)

Still, some internal instability in the state of Israel would probably be good just now.

Or, it might just be even worse.

There were protests about this a few months back.

‘We’d rather die than enlist’: Haredi Jews vow to defy conscription

An Israeli High Court ruling has overturned a decades-old military exemption for ultra-Orthodox Jews, causing protests to erupt.

www.972mag.com

The largest anti-draft rally in a decade united several Haredi factions, whose adherents carried signs that read “We will not enlist in an enemy army,” “We would rather live as Jews than die as Zionists,” “To jail and not to the army,” “Zionism uses Jews as human shields,” and other critical slogans in Hebrew and English.

Protesters attacked cars transporting two Haredi political leaders, burned garbage cans, and tried to rip fences and traffic signs out of the ground. Police attempted to forcibly disperse them using mounted officers, batons, and a water cannon loaded with “skunk” — though many of the remaining demonstrators, including young children, jubilantly endured powerful jets of the foul-smelling liquid. A handful of protesters were arrested.

 

[little_legs]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-haredi-parties-say-pm-promised-them-katz-would-nix-new-batch-of-enlistment-orders/

I suspect it'll be cancelled. Interesting though if not, because it might provoke disobedience. which could piss off a substantial number of regular israelis who don't really fancy reserve service either but are having to do it. So, netanyahu is bound to overrule katz (the new defence minister)

Still, some internal instability in the state of Israel would probably be good just now.

Or, it might just be even worse.

I also think the haredim draft gets shelved/frozen. It's not just the haredim who want nothing to do with combat, there are reports in the Israeli media that thousands of reservists are refusing military service‎.

The Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth:‎

‎The number of reservists obeying recalls in Gaza and Lebanon decreased by 20%.‎
‎Thousands of soldiers from the reserve refuse to comply with military service.‎
‎The army says this is the price of attrition and that soldiers do not want to reach collapse like others who preceded them.‎
‎The shortage of troops is a key consideration in making decisions regarding military operations.‎
‎The decline in the number of soldiers refusing to serve began specifically with ground operations in Lebanon.‎

I don't blame any of them.

What happens to the refuseniks in Israel, do they just get a slap on a wrist or some admin punishment?

 

[mojo pixy]

I don't blame any of them.

What happens to the refuseniks in Israel, do they just get a slap on a wrist or some admin punishment?

Neither do I. My ex didn't do army service, but her brother did and hated it. Her kids aren't old enough, yet.

The 'punishment' let's say for not doing military service has always been exclusion from certain professions and the stigma of not having done it. Everyone finds out because army life is such a common subject of conversation there when you're among strangers. People orient themselves around each other socially based on what they did in the army so if you didn't have that experience you stand out really often.

But maybe there was always the chance of prison, at least one conscientious objector has done a month in prison since last October, it was even in the news here. But I don't know if the law has changed, or if there already was some law that's now being used more.

 

[Dogsauce]

Maybe I'm just being a bit obtuse here, but how can any international dispute over land, not be a zero-sum "game"?

You never heard of a flying freehold?