Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[brogdale]

i'll say one thing for the amateur left, they're lagging far behind the professional far-right in their bodycount.

A point well made by this person on twitter:



In the context of a live and on-going genocide in which, on average, 50 Palestinian children are being killed each day, if there wasn't anger on this thread it would be very troubling.

 

[tim]

You still haven't answered my question. What has this got to do with the Palestinians? What are they supposed to do with this information?

It's so awfully inconvenient that they exist.

This is nothing but apologist whataboutery. What about what was done to Jews in Europe? What about it?

In the context of an ongoing genocide, it's pretty obscene whataboutery.

What did your comments about the events of 1948 have to do with what is happening now? You seem offended primarily because I critiqued your simplistic narrative of that period.

Neither you nor I can change what happened over 70 years ago, but but if it is to be debated, it is probably with going beyond the banal colonial settler shite and reflect upon what was actually going on at the time.

 

[_Russ_]

Theres a few cunts in this thread deliberatly misrepresenting others views to further personal vendettas and bigoted agendas.
Its fucked the thread up.

Can we get back to the subject in hand?

 

[belboid]

Theres a few cunts in this thread deliberatly misrepresenting others views to further personal vendettas and bigoted agendas.
Its fucked the thread up.

Can we get back to the subject in hand?

I wonder why you dont want a discussion bout antisemitism? You massive fucking racist prick.

 

[mojo pixy]

Probably best that we're open about how we feel and where we're coming from.

Well, I definitely have been; this thread has put me in the position of having to make public, personal things that had been private, at least here.

However my main point now and always is that treating the Israel/Palestine situation as a zero-sum problem will always fail, has always failed. And yes at the risk of arousing the ire of logic bros, it is a two-sided problem. There are many different actual interests on the ground, but for the last 80 years it's been painted more widely as a bunch of binaries: israel/palestine, jews/arabs, east/west, aggressor/victim, zionist/arab nationalist.

And always in a particular frame: We only win if they lose. Now that really is unhelpful.

 

[Gramsci]

Interview with Israeli historian Adam Raz on Netanyahu's relationship with Hamas

The not-so-secret history of Netanyahu's support for Hamas

From sabotaging Oslo to funneling Qatari cash into Gaza, Bibi has spent his career bolstering Hamas to help perpetuate the conflict.

www.972mag.com

I think he puts to much emphasis on individuals.

He does have very gloomy view of Israeli society..

This struck me,

I think that nearly 60 years of occupation has changed the heart of the average Israeli. Yeshayahu Leibowitz, the Orthodox Jewish intellectual and Hebrew University professor, said as early as 1968 that the occupation is a corrupting force. The occupation has truly corrupted us.

I get from Ilan Pappe when he talks about Israel.

It's like it's a divided society which doesn't any longer have an optimistic future.

Or a positive picture of a future for itself.

What he saying it's one of perpetual conflict in Bibi land as he calls it.

 

[mojo pixy]

I wrote 20 years ago in a post elsewhere on this exact subject (not this war obvs but the 'second intifada' had just begun)

Israel needs an external enemy because it's such a weird patchwork / mosaic it simply doesn't have anything to hold it together - except Judaism, which more and more each generation are lapsing further from. So without Jewish observance, apart from the unifying matter of the Hebrew language there's really not a lot holding Israel together. Not history, it's a new nation and 'jewish history' looks different depending on whether your family came from Russia, Germany, the UK, Spain, Morocco, Egypt, Iraq, Iran....

But enemies at the border - yes, that will always bring people together.

So that's where we are now, and it's ugly as fuck.

 

[HeAthen]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/11/11/middleeast/israeli-minister-annexation-occupied-west-bank-intl

More on Smotrich- a Zionist.

If it sounds like ethnic cleansing......

 

[Knotted]

I am really fucking incensed that about a third of this thread is throwing around shady, snidey, mainly unfounded accusations of antisemitism while in Gaza, thousands of innocent women and children are being murdered.

Nearly 70% of Gaza war dead women and children - UN

A UN agency verified victims from a six-month period and said it found international law violations.

www.bbc.co.uk

Do some of you lot either have no sense of proportion, or no sense of shame? Or no sense of what is right?

I thought Urban was better then this.

When I see stupid and angry or flat out anti-semitic posts (which there certainly have been) I think of those Palestinian public commentators and intellectuals such as Mouin Rabbani, Diana Bhuttu or Noura Erakat and many others who are the very models of calm, rationality even though their souls must being torn to shreds. They are watching their people being destroyed and they still keep their shit together. And this is because the Palestinian cause is facing on all sides the dismissal as being the cause of anti-semites, angry Arabs, blood thirsty Islamists and their lunatic leftist apologists. Let's not give the enemies of the Palestinian people what they want to hear.

And also let's not tolerate anti-semitism anyway. The fact that a jewish poster is having to defend themselves for calling out anti-semitism on this thread is a disgrace. Regardless of what is happening elsewhere, let's not make this place a sewer.

 

[Gramsci]

Been finishing watching interview with Tareq Baconi. A Palestinian intellectual whose written a lot on Hamas

He points out that Palestinians have always been dismissed . Whatever they do. In his view the same level of dismissal isn't directed at Israel. Which over the course of the last century of Zionism/ Israel has done its share of massacres.

What he could have added is this dismissal isn't from all sides. Its mainly in the West.

And it didn't start on 7th October, As he says.

He puts some of it down to an underlying Orientalism which still sees Arabs as not quite civilised. Prone to violence.

I haven't read his book on Hamas btw.

One thing I think is missing from this thread is a Palestinian voice.

 

[Gramsci]

And TBH I'm glad oryx said what they said.

 

[Gramsci]

My reading etc might be one sided but given living in the West means mainstream view point tends to support Israel searching YouTube for some decent stuff and their are a lot of Palestinian voices out there.

 

[Gramsci]

Just finished the interview with Tareq Baconi. The Jadaliyya YouTube channel is excellent. It's been put together by some academics to be educational channel in light of what's been happening over last year.

Been watching this rather than straight news as cant handle seeing yet more dead on TV. It was starting to do my head in



I thought this was particularly good. A lot in it so worth a second watch. In this interview he doesn't hold back.

So he sees Zionism as settler colonial. Apartheid system is about managing demographics to make the illusion of a majority Jewish state. Similar to what happened in South Africa where populations were moved.

Quoting the work on another writer whose name I didn't catch he says apartheid practices , the structural violence and now genocide need to be seen as different ways Zionism works in practice. So look at it as a whole not as separate issues.

On Hamas. He isn't Hamas supporter but he's studied them. The October 7th attack has caused an irreversible rupture. Leading to an existential crisis for Palestinians and Zionism ( as practised in Israel ). One side wants a Jewish supremacist state from the river to the sea and the other freedom and justice. An end to Zionism. So its existential for both of them.

The Hamas military wing have shown that Palestinians are capable of highly organised attack. An example of asymmetrical warfare. They have also for months withstood a vastly superior force. So he reckons this example of asymmetrical warfare will be studied in years to come. What he sees lacking is Hamas having a political strategy in combination with this.

For him and what he wants to do is for Palestinian people together to work in these dark times for Palestinians a way forward.

Not quite positives but what have we learned section of interview. He says Hamas attack shows Israel is not invincible. Without USA help over the years it is possible it would not have lasted. Secondly public support for Israel / Zionism has reduced over the last year. That is with Joe public if not the political leaders.

On resistance. I don't think he is against military resistance. But he is not wedded to it either. He also made point that resistance can take many forms. One is Steadfastness- Sumud- in the face of occupation and expulsion.

To add he talks in one section about Hamas and violence. They are not just bloodthirsty. They did use suicide bombers. But gave that up when it didn't work that well. Then moved into getting elected. What he is saying is that Hamas act strategically and use violence strategically. They also at times pursued the non violent route.

Its not going to be an interview all are going to like. He does use ( as is common with Palestinians ) a settler colonial framework.

They have a discussion about violence. Structural violence and terrorist violence. Bassam the interviewer ( an academic) doesn't like term terrorism.

The violence of October the 7th is intimate violence. Israel with its military capability can do what is perceived as clean violence. That is violence at second hand. Use of drones for example.

Not disagreeing with them here but I think they miss out on the fact that this to me anyway is a highly public violence by IDF. In early days anyway. ( I think IDF have clamped down now). Soldiers posting graphic footage up.

 

[Rimbaud]

I'm reading everything, the problem is that some 'explanations' aren't convincing. And nobody's yet tried to explain why 'zionist entity' rather than just Israel, which is its name.

I might be wrong but I haven't seen anyone refer to Israel as "The zionist entity" in this thread. I've seen Pickmans Model use it before in years gone by but haven't seen anyone else use it or even Pickmans use it for several years. I could be wrong though.

Edit: I searched the thread and I'm wrong, Pickmans Model has used it, but other than him I think it's been used non-ironically only once by one other poster.

 

[redsquirrel]

Both of those phrases have legitimate uses. The former was coined by an Israeli academic and the latter is often used by Jews to describe themselves, neither are inherently anti-semitic. And you haven't answered my question.

Not inherently no. But used repeatedly in the context they have sometimes been used in this thread they are terms that are at best very unhelpful and at worst have gone over the line.
And the fact that some posters are still using them even after this has been pointed out to them is an issue.

 

[brogdale]

And, irrespective about people's feelings, the steady, remorseless genocide continues it's daily pattern. Familiarity can lead us to be inured to the horror, but sometimes simple words from a (AJ) news report bring you up short....

• The death toll since dawn across Gaza rises to 25 after an Israeli air strike targets an overcrowded area in Deir el-Balah city, killing at least six people.

 

[Idris2002]

Well, I definitely have been; this thread has put me in the position of having to make public, personal things that had been private, at least here.

However my main point now and always is that treating the Israel/Palestine situation as a zero-sum problem will always fail, has always failed. And yes at the risk of arousing the ire of logic bros, it is a two-sided problem. There are many different actual interests on the ground, but for the last 80 years it's been painted more widely as a bunch of binaries: israel/palestine, jews/arabs, east/west, aggressor/victim, zionist/arab nationalist.

And always in a particular frame: We only win if they lose. Now that really is unhelpful.

Not a zero-sum problem? I agree entirely. This is not to say that both sides are equally guilty - they are not - but simply to say that any eventual solution must be based on a guarantee of the human rights of all in the territory of what was once Mandate Palestine (and all those in refugee camps now, outside that territory).

Otherwise, the conflict will be settled via genocide. Perhaps a double genocide.

 

[brogdale]

Maybe I'm just being a bit obtuse here, but how can any international dispute over land, not be a zero-sum "game"?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not a zero-sum problem? I agree entirely. This is not to say that both sides are equally guilty - they are not - but simply to say that any eventual solution must be based on a guarantee of the human rights of all in the territory of what was once Mandate Palestine (and all those in refugee camps now, outside that territory).

Otherwise, the conflict will be settled via genocide. Perhaps a double genocide.

That's a point that has been made by me and others in stating that the only solution is a single-state solution. This exact point, in fact: "a guarantee of the human rights of all in the territory of what was once Mandate Palestine".

But I agree with brogdale. There isn't any extra land to magic out of nowhere. The land will need to be shared. So in that sense, it is zero-sum.

 

[Idris2002]

And, irrespective about people's feelings, the steady, remorseless genocide continues it's daily pattern. Familiarity can lead us to be inured to the horror, but sometimes simple words from a (AJ) news report bring you up short....

There isn't even a pretence now that it is combatants who are being targetted.

 

[Idris2002]

Maybe I'm just being a bit obtuse here, but how can any international dispute over land, not be a zero-sum "game"?

When the dispute is settled by agreement, or an irredentist claim is replaced by an aspiration to settlement by agreement - as when an overwhelming majority of the Irish electorate voted to remove the territorial claim on the North of Ireland in their constitution, and replace it with an aspiration to unity by consent.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

There's a big difference between land with a dirty great wall in the middle and no-go zones either side and land which is used for agriculture or trade or whatever isn't there. So it might be zero sum in the sense of who gets the most area but there's other factors in there too.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There's a big difference between land with a dirty great wall in the middle and no-go zones either side and land which is used for agriculture or trade or whatever isn't there. So it might be zero sum in the sense of who gets the most area but there's other factors in there too.

Certainly in terms of making the most of what land there is, a single state in which all are equal citizens is the best chance of doing that.

Tbh I think the idea that there could ever be a viable two-state solution is frankly laughable now. Maybe 30 years ago, this seemed possible but today it no longer does. The only way this ends is with a complete genocide or a complete defeat for this current formulation of the state of Israel.

And yes, to those who object to such ideas, I am calling for an end to Israel as it is currently formulated. And no, this does not equal a call for mass expulsions. It equals a call for equality.

 

[brogdale]

When the dispute is settled by agreement, or an irredentist claim is replaced by an aspiration to settlement by agreement - as when an overwhelming majority of the Irish electorate voted to remove the territorial claim on the North of Ireland in their constitution, and replace it with an aspiration to unity by consent.

Yep, well obviously it would be good if Isreal's invasion of Gaza could be ended by an agreement. But, whatever might be agreed about the land, be that 1 state or 2 state or something else, is inevitably about the allocation of land. I can't see how this can be anything other than zero-sum.

 

[Duncan2]

Did see a claim that in the region of sixty thousand American citizens live in the settlements in the West Bank- if that's broadly correct I imagine they would resist any movement to dismantle settlements.

 

[Gramsci]

Yep, well obviously it would be good if Isreal's invasion of Gaza could be ended by an agreement. But, whatever might be agreed about the land, be that 1 state or 2 state or something else, is inevitably about the allocation of land. I can't see how this can be anything other than zero-sum.

I don't think it's purely about land. Nor is about binaries.

As the Israeli architect Eyal Weissman wrote in his book on Israel whether it's a one state or two state solution the apartheid system within Israel and in the Occupied territories needs to be dismantled.

This would be a longer term process.

This would mean the end of Zionism. Or at least end of Zionism of the Labour/ Revisionist kind.

As littlebabyjesus says a just solution would mean the end of Israel as it's presently constituted.

It's this that's a sticking point for some.

It's entirely feasible to do and in fact could mean that a modernised state in the old mandate area could be a democratic state for all.

 

[Gramsci]

As Eyal Weissman also points out in his book the peace process wasn't going the way of genuine two states.

He has term vertical apartheid.

So it's not straightforwardly about land. As an architect he's talking about how space is used. Above and below ground. The surface and air above .

It's imo useful way to look at it.

Spacially

What was looking like the Israeli version of two states was for limited self government for PA in islands of land between settlements. Plus a few land swaps. With Israel absorbing settlements on west side of west bank.

In the air and below land surface Israel would still have last say. That is aircraft flights and controls on water.

Israel would also have security rights over a demilitarised PA. So could go in and out when they want.

That was what was looking to be the so called two state solution.

 

[Gramsci]

Here is Eyal Weissman on how this Zionist system covers not only occupied territories but Israel itself,

Israeli domination of Palestinians is not confined to the spaces occupied in 1967. In its early decades, Israel’s rule in the occupied territories used techniques of domination that were well-honed on those Palestinians who survived and remained in place during the expulsions of 1948. In recent decades, techniques of domination, land grab and separation, more intensely exercised in the 1967 occupied areas, inspired the further separation of Jews and Arabs within Israel itself. The occupation can thus not be thought of as an aberration of Israeli democracy, a ‘cancerous tumour’ that can be removed by dissecting more or less along the internationally recognized Green Line of 1949, as left-liberal apologists of Zionism propose. Rather, it is a local manifestation of Israel’s regime of domination and separation that extends, in different forms, between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/vertical-apartheid/

.
It's why he calls for a dismantling of the whole system. Which from his architects view is built into the land

He's taking issue here with liberal/ left Zionism.

 

[ID47]

Certainly in terms of making the most of what land there is, a single state in which all are equal citizens is the best chance of doing that.

Tbh I think the idea that there could ever be a viable two-state solution is frankly laughable now. Maybe 30 years ago, this seemed possible but today it no longer does. The only way this ends is with a complete genocide or a complete defeat for this current formulation of the state of Israel.

And yes, to those who object to such ideas, I am calling for an end to Israel as it is currently formulated. And no, this does not equal a call for mass expulsions. It equals a call for equality.

Fully agree, the state as it is needs dismantling, the land and people will remain but the present racially supremacist genocidal entity cannot continue. At the end of the day it's their choice, tough it out and everyone dies on all sides.

 

[teqniq]

Haaretz. Publishing what many western publications and leaders are very reluctant to say:

Opinion | Maybe Israel Is Committing Genocide After All?