Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[kabbes]

Can you give us examples of people making this claim?

israel as the most evil country that's ever existed; indescribably worse than other, older settler colonial states, engaged in a genocide uniquely bad and worse than all other genocides ever;

What I have seen is claims that Israel is currently perpetrating evil that is comparable with other, older evils. And that it is engaged in a genocide, which is enough all by itself. There are no “better” or “worse” genocides and it’s frankly weird to even talk of it in those terms.

 

[mojo pixy]

Can you give us examples of people making this claim?



What I have seen is claims that Israel is currently perpetrating evil that is comparable with other, older evils. And that it is engaged in a genocide, which is enough all by itself. There are no “better” or “worse” genocides and it’s frankly weird to even talk of it in those terms.

Did I say it was a specific claim? It's a narrative.

Deny it if you want. Be the first in line

 

[kabbes]

Did I say it was a specific claim? It's a narrative.

Deny it if you want. Be the first in line

Can you give me an example of that narrative then?

It’s quite a specific narrative that still includes some specific claims. Namely, that Israel is not just bad, but the worst. The narrative you claim is to be underway is that it is not just evil but the most evil. Not just like older colonial states but worse than them. Not just engaged in genocide, but in a unique genocide. Those are your words. That’s your claim. You should be able to provide some kind of example, from somewhere, of “most”, “worse” and “unique”. And if you can’t, it might be worth reflecting that that things are your projection.

 

[mojo pixy]

Can you give me an example of that narrative then?

It’s quite a specific narrative that still includes some specific claims. Namely, that Israel is not just bad, but the worst. The narrative you claim is to be underway is that it is not just evil but the most evil. Not just like older colonial states but worse than them. Not just engaged in genocide, but in a unique genocide. Those are your words. That’s your claim. You should be able to provide some kind of example, from somewhere, of “most”, “worse” and “unique”. And if you can’t, it might be worth reflecting that that things are your projection.

Wow, you really don't like it do you?

I wonder if you could name any other countries that routinely don't get referred to by their name?

Other than that, I've got work to go to so can't promise to respond soon. Sorry. Maybe you could do some reflecting too, since your reply to my post came so quickly I'm not sure you've really thought it over.

 

[Gramsci]

So perhaps instead of dehumanisation it is better to view Zionism and the State of Israel as a settler colonial project. With the indigenous people seen as a problem. To be dealt with in different ways. As is the case with other settler colonial projects.

Looking at the history its not that Israel is the most evil country that existed. Its that this is happening now in full glare of media in 2024.

 

[kabbes]

Wow, you really don't like it do you?

I wonder if you could name any other countries that routinely don't get referred to by their name?

Other than that, I've got work to go to so can't promise to respond soon. Sorry. Maybe you could do some reflecting too, since your reply to my post came so quickly I'm not sure you've really thought it over.

Who isn't calling Israel by the name "Israel"?

It's not that I don't like what you've said. It's that it reveals a lot about what these events are doing to you. Namely, that you're not really coping with the fact that something you experience as part of your self-identity (i.e., Israel) is engaged in practices that you know are about as bad as it gets. That's a terrible thing to have to deal with. To defend your self-concept, you have to do something with it. Your statement indicates that you're projecting all your worst fears about it onto nameless others -- they are the ones saying these things. But they're really not -- it's you saying it, because you're scared it might be true.

For the record, I don't see any narrative that Israel are the worst ever, uniquely bad. I just see a lot of people angry that they are doing something truly awful.

 

[mojo pixy]

Who isn't calling Israel by the name "Israel"?

It's not that I don't like what you've said. It's that it reveals a lot about what these events are doing to you. Namely, that you're not really coping with the fact that something you experience as part of your self-identity (i.e., Israel) is engaged in practices that you know are about as bad as it gets. That's a terrible thing to have to deal with. To defend your self-concept, you have to do something with it. Your statement indicates that you're projecting all your worst fears about it onto nameless others -- they are the ones saying these things. But they're really not -- it's you saying it, because you're scared it might be true.

For the record, I don't see any narrative that Israel are the worst ever, uniquely bad. I just see a lot of people angry that they are doing something truly awful.

I'm not as angry as I am sad tbh. But my emotional state isn't really the issue here, and I'd add too that other posters who flag up racism on threads don't normally have their state of mind poked at. I guess I wish I could be the person you're describing, but I'm just not.

Next time someone refers to 'zionists' instead of israelis though, or 'zionist entity' instead of israel, I'll try to remember to flag it up for you. Since you seem not to be able to notice.

 

[Pickman's model]

Wow, you really don't like it do you?

I wonder if you could name any other countries that routinely don't get referred to by their name?

Other than that, I've got work to go to so can't promise to respond soon. Sorry. Maybe you could do some reflecting too, since your reply to my post came so quickly I'm not sure you've really thought it over.

The United States of America is often referred to as America, as tho Canada, Mexico etc don't really exist on the continent.

 

[kabbes]

Next time someone refers to 'zionists' instead of israelis though, or 'zionist entity' instead of israel, I'll try to remember to flag it up for you. Since you seem not to be able to notice.

Ah. so that's what you're referring to. I don't interpret that as being unable to say Israel. I interpret it as an act of attempted kindness, a recognition that it isn't the Israeli population who are perpetrating an genocide but just that part of its governance that has the reins of power right now. An ideological substrata, rather than the country as a whole.

 

[teqniq]

Ah. so that's what you're referring to. I don't interpret that as being unable to say Israel. I interpret it as an act of attempted kindness, a recognition that it isn't the Israeli population who are perpetrating an genocide but just that part of its governance that has the reins of power right now. An ideological substrata, rather than the country as a whole.

The Israeli state is of course a Zionist project but although this article is a little old it states that whilst the majority dislike Netanyahu the majority of the Israeli public support what is happening in Gaza including limiting humanitarian aid:

Most Israelis dislike Netanyahu, but support the war in Gaza – an Israeli scholar explains what’s driving public opinion

Israelis’ and Jewish people’s long-held feeling of persecution, dating back to biblical times, contributes to most Israelis’ desire to continue the war in Gaza.

theconversation.com

 

[kabbes]

The Israeli state is of course a Zionist project but although this article is a little old it states that whilst the majority dislike Netanyahu the majority of the Israeli public support what is happening in Gaza including limiting humanitarian aid:

Most Israelis dislike Netanyahu, but support the war in Gaza – an Israeli scholar explains what’s driving public opinion

Israelis’ and Jewish people’s long-held feeling of persecution, dating back to biblical times, contributes to most Israelis’ desire to continue the war in Gaza.

theconversation.com

Yes, I don't personally see a need to sugar-coat it in terms of what "Zionists" are doing. As far as I am concerned, the Israeli state is engaged in a project of genocide. That's enough for me, frankly. I don't need to compare it to other genocides or worry about who is better or worse than whom. A state performing genocide gets my horror all by itself.

 

[Gramsci]

I tend to use Zionist to distinguish between people born in state of Israel and Zionism as such.

Not every Israeli born there is supporter of Zionism. Its not an individuals fault the country they are born in.

Though it appears to me that some who end up opposing Zionism ( the actual existing versions of Labour Zionism and Revisionist. Its possible to argue there were different versions that got sidelined with establishment of the state) end up leaving. Ilan Pappe and Eyal Weismann come to mind of those whose books I've read.

 

[kabbes]

I tend to use Zionist to distinguish between people born in state of Israel and Zionism as such.

Not every Israeli born there is supporter of Zionism. Its not an individuals fault the country they are born in.

Though it appears to me that some who end up opposing Zionism ( the actual existing versions of Labour Zionism and Revisionist. Its possible to argue there were different versions that got sidelined with establishment of the state) end up leaving. Ilan Pappe and Eyal Weismann come to mind of those whose books I've read.

For me, it's enough to note that a state is not synonymous with the population of that state.

 

[mojo pixy]

Actually, on reflection this is pretty fucking outrageous: you're clearly overwrought, you're probably imagining things that aren't there.

Isn't that called 'gaslighting' in other contexts?

But not here, obvs

Mondays...

 

[Pickman's model]

Actually, on reflection this is pretty fucking outrageous: you're clearly overwrought, you're probably imagining things that aren't there.

Isn't that called 'gaslighting' in other contexts?

But not here, obvs

Mondays...

you're certainly avoiding reading posts where people have explained previously why they use terms you object to

 

[kabbes]

Actually, on reflection this is pretty fucking outrageous: you're clearly overwrought, you're probably imagining things that aren't there.

Isn't that called 'gaslighting' in other contexts?

But not here, obvs

Mondays...

No. This is nothing to do with gaslighting or emotions or any other kind of affective process. This is a completely different thing. I’m not saying you’re emotional. I’m saying that you’re projecting your own concerns, which threaten your self-concept, into the mouths of nameless others.

Unless you want to provide examples of these others saying that this genocide is unique or this colonialism is the worst or that Israel is the most evil ever to exist? Those were your claims.

 

[teqniq]

Doubtless there will be claims of unreliability , antisemitism, not a serious source etc....

‘It’s not close’ - Israel committing genocide concludes Wikipedia ending editorial debate

 

[CNT36]

It's becoming really hard not to see the takeover of this thread by some posters flinging around allegations of antisemitism as an attempt to deflect from and minimise the genocide that's going on in Gaza.

Who?

 

[brogdale]

Nobody is doing this.

It's becoming hard not to see the constant downplaying of antisemitism by poster after poster as an attempt to delegitimise voices that counter the narrative of israel as the most evil country that's ever existed; indescribably worse than other, older settler colonial states, engaged in a genocide uniquely bad and worse than all other genocides ever; a nation so vile that some here won't even use its name. Are there any other countries that get called an "entity"? No, there are none.

But it's not antisemitism!

Wow.
It's always useful to see how a discussion is affecting a poster, so thanks for your honesty....but there's quite a number of contestable points there.

If i'm reading you right you perceive that many posters have attempted to delegitimise your attempts to counter posters who generate a narrative that Israel:

• is the most evil country that has ever exited
• is indescribably worse that other, older settler colonial states
• is engaged in a genocide uniquely bad and worse than all other genocides ever
• a nation so vile that some here won't even use its name

According to the the 8th exemplar of the IHRA definition, such narratives might well constitute antisemitism.

Perhaps, having recently been falsely accused of antisemitism in this thread, I'm being overly sceptical, but I just don't recall posters saying the things that you suggest in those first 3 bullet points. Have you really had to counter someone saying that Israel is the most evil country that has ever exited, indescribably worse that other states or engaged in a genocide uniquely bad and worse than all other genocides ever? If you have and have also felt delegitimised then I would only be able to apologise for not noticing or reading the thread carefully enough.

What I have seen, of late, is a thread where an enormously contentious and emotive issue has been discussed, catalogued and analysed seriously with an impressive degree of self-restraint and reflection. I've also noted that many posters have rejected posts that have blatantly infringed other of the IHRA exemplars of antisemitism.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Nobody is doing this.

It's becoming hard not to see the constant downplaying of antisemitism by poster after poster as an attempt to delegitimise voices that counter the narrative of israel as the most evil country that's ever existed; indescribably worse than other, older settler colonial states, engaged in a genocide uniquely bad and worse than all other genocides ever; a nation so vile that some here won't even use its name. Are there any other countries that get called an "entity"? No, there are none.

But it's not antisemitism!

Israel is a settler colonial state that was founded via an act of ethnic cleansing. It is now engaged in a genocide against the people it displaced in order to come into existence.

One of the key words there is "now". This is not some atrocity from history books. It is an atrocity that is happening right now. More people have probably been killed in the time it took me to write this post.

As others have said, this stands on its own for its horror. And it is being actively supported by several governments around the world, notably ours. Are people angry? Of course they fucking are. Has anyone said the things in your list? No. To use your words, "Nobody is doing this".

By inventing this narrative based around antisemitism to push against, you do come across as attempting to downplay Israel's culpability, however.


As noted previously, this is exactly the approach that the Israeli government itself takes towards criticism:

Why are you criticising Israel? It's because we're Jewish, isn't it?

No. No, it's not.

 

[mojo pixy]

you're certainly avoiding reading posts where people have explained previously why they use terms you object to

I'm reading everything, the problem is that some 'explanations' aren't convincing. And nobody's yet tried to explain why 'zionist entity' rather than just Israel, which is its name.

What I have seen, of late, is a thread where an enormously contentious and emotive issue has been discussed, catalogued and analysed seriously with an impressive degree of self-restraint and reflection. I've also noted that many posters have rejected posts that have blatantly infringed other of the IHRA exemplars of antisemitism.

I've seen that too. But it hasn't all been that.

 

[brogdale]

Israel is a settler colonial state that was founded via an act of ethnic cleansing. It is now engaged in a genocide against the people it displaced in order to come into existence.

One of the key words there is "now". This is not some atrocity from history books. It is an atrocity that is happening right now. More people have probably been killed in the time it took me to write this post.

As others have said, this stands on its own for its horror. And it is being actively supported by several governments around the world, notably ours. Are people angry? Of course they fucking are. Has anyone said the things in your list? No. To use your words, "Nobody is doing this".

By inventing this narrative based around antisemitism to push against, you do come across as attempting to downplay Israel's culpability, however.


As noted previously, this is exactly the approach that the Israeli government itself takes towards criticism:

Why are you criticising Israel? It's because we're Jewish, isn't it?

No. No, it's not.

Yes, just this.

The "now" element is, of course, crucial for those of us discussing event on social media. It seems, to me, very important to discuss and record the ongoing genocide in Gaza and I note that an event as grave as yesterday's bombing now gets normalised and relegated right down the MSM agenda:



As you say, it is also significant that these war crimes and crimes against humanity are being facilitated, supported and justified by our own governments.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The murder of children is just another day in Gaza.

Israel is a state that was founded with an act of ethnic cleansing (anyone who denies this has their work cut out changing history – previous generations of Israeli leaders such as Dayan didn't even try to deny it).

And currently it is engaged in a systematic genocide, which has been going on for so long now that it's becoming normalised.

Whataboutery in the face of current events is a big FUCK YOU to Palestinians.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm reading everything, the problem is that some 'explanations' aren't convincing. And nobody's yet tried to explain why 'zionist entity' rather than just Israel, which is its name.


I've seen that too. But it hasn't all been that.

you're obviously not reading everything. since i have explained in the past why i use it. plus on this thread i've used israel a number of times so your raising this is not easily understandable.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Nobody is doing this.

It's becoming hard not to see the constant downplaying of antisemitism by poster after poster as an attempt to delegitimise voices that counter the narrative of israel as the most evil country that's ever existed; indescribably worse than other, older settler colonial states, engaged in a genocide uniquely bad and worse than all other genocides ever; a nation so vile that some here won't even use its name. Are there any other countries that get called an "entity"? No, there are none.

But it's not antisemitism!

Indeed, you can be horrified and opposed to Israel's reaction to October 7 and the occupation and by Hamas' actions on October 7, and recognise that Jewish people have been murdered and oppressed all through history and it's still happening now...anyone who can't accept the latter is clearly either lacking in humanity or filled with racism against Jews.

 

[Duncan2]

Pretty sure that Ben Gurion or some contemporary of his referred to a "Palestinian entity" and it was in reference to this that others took to talking of a "Zionist entity"

 

[little_legs]

As noted previously, this is exactly the approach that the Israeli government itself takes towards criticism:

Why are you criticising Israel? It's because we're Jewish, isn't it?

No. No, it's not.

A term 'crybully' comes to mind.

 

[Gramsci]

I've tended to avoid Palestine issue as its so contentious. Before Hamas attack and Israel response.

Given that now have been reading fair amount.

First point Id like to make is that in real world Israel isn't under threat as a state. It has most importantly the support of USA whether it has Democrat or Republican presidents.

Whatever people might say about Israel as long as it's got USA and countries like ours supporting it there is no existential threat to it. In actual fact the opposite.

On anti semitism. I just accept that's what one is going to get every now and then.

It's arguable some of my posts about Zionism cross or border the definitions in the example given for the IHRA.

That's my reading of history. There's the now and how things arrived at the situation happening now

 

[tim]

.

Israel is a state that was founded with an act of ethnic cleansing (anyone who denies this has their work cut out changing history – previous generations of Israeli leaders such as Dayan didn't even try to deny it).

It was founded on numerous acts of mass murder and ethnic cleansing including: the Shoah in Europe; the Nakba in Palestine; the extiripation of long-established Jewish communities in the MENA in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s; and the purges and expulsion of Jews from Poland in 1967/68.

 

[tim]

I've tended to avoid Palestine issue as its so contentious. Before Hamas attack and Israel response.

Given that now have been reading fair amount.

First point Id like to make is that in real world Israel isn't under threat as a state. It has most importantly the support of USA whether it has Democrat or Republican presidents.

Whatever people might say about Israel as long as it's got USA and countries like ours supporting it there is no existential threat to it. In actual fact the opposite.

On anti semitism. I just accept that's what one is going to get every now and then.

It's arguable some of my posts about Zionism cross or border the definitions in the example given for the IHRA.

That's my reading of history. There's the now and how things arrived at the situation happening now

Israel has support from the USA, the UK, Russia, Germany, and France. That's a geopolitical reality.

As to getting antisemitism "every now and then". All of those "now and "agains" when they happen on these boards should lead to the poster responsibile being banned. That is not what has happened.