Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[littlebabyjesus]

.

It was founded on numerous acts of mass murder and ethnic cleansing including: the Shoah in Europe; the Nakba in Palestine; the extiripation of long-established Jewish communities in the MENA in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s; and the purges and expulsion of Jews from Poland in 1967/68.

What are Palestinians supposed to do with the information that Jews have been persecuted elsewhere?

Actually it's ok for us to be thrown off our land, turned into perpetual refugees locked inside a massive prison, and now bombed into oblivion. You know really terrible things were done to Jews by other people in other places. So it's only right that they should get to take our land then murder us.

If that's not what you're saying, wtf are you saying?

 

[oryx]

Nobody is doing this.

YOU are doing this. Can you stop derailing this thread and making it all about how people perceive Israel.

Can I suggest that you start your own thread about how people perceive Israel in the context of antisemitism?

 

[maomao]

Israel has support from the USA, the UK, Russia, Germany, and France. That's a geopolitical reality.

As to getting antisemitism "every now and then". All of those "now and "agains" when they happen on these boards should lead to the poster responsibile being banned. That is not what has happened.

Using which (or whose) definition of anti-semitism?

 

[tim]

What are Palestinians supposed to do with the information that Jews have been persecuted elsewhere?

Actually it's ok for us to be thrown off our land, turned into perpetual refugees locked inside a massive prison, and now bombed into oblivion. You know really terrible things were done to Jews by other people in other places. So it's only right that they should get to take our land then murder us.

If that's not what you're saying, wtf are you saying?

I'm saying that the creation of Israel lead to mass murder and ethnic cleansing but was also the consequence of ethnic cleansing and genocide, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[teqniq]

You will need to use a translate service to read this but essentially if this is true it will not look good at all for Netanyayu. This info seems to have surfaced due to the ongoing investigation into the leaks from the Prime minister's office:

במוקד החקירות: מה ידעו בלשכת רה"מ על מבצע כרטיסי הסים לפני 7 באוקטובר

מה ידעו בלשכת נתניהו על מבצע הסימים שהתנהל בחודשים שקדמו ל-7/10, ומה דווח לה בלילה שקדם לטבח על הסימנים שחמאס החל להשמישם? במרכז חקירת החשדות לזיופים ולסחיטה בלשכת רה"מ נמצא נושא בעל משמעות היסטורית, שבליבת הוויכוח על האחריות והאשמה לאירועים. אל"מ ש', שנמצא בעמדת מפתח, עשוי לענות על השאלות...

www.ynet.co.il

precis from tweet that the above link comes from:

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm saying that the creation of Israel lead to mass murder and ethnic cleansing but was also the consequence of ethnic cleansing and genocide, nothing more, nothing less.

Why?

Why are you saying that in the context of a thread about a genocide taking place right now in Palestine?

The sum total content of posts from the likes of you and Spymaster on this thread has contained virtually nothing even acknowledging the Palestinian position.

In context, your post amounts to whataboutery of the worst kind. Fuck Palestinians. They don't matter.

 

[tim]

Using which (or whose) definition of anti-semitism?

I think comments "Judeo-Nazis" and "Chosen People" would count under most definitions of antisemitism. Do you think that such terminology is not antisemitic?

 

[tim]

Why?

Why are you saying that in the context of a thread about a genocide taking place right now in Palestine?

The sum total content of posts from the likes of you and Spymaster on this thread has contained virtually nothing even acknowledging the Palestinian position.

In context, your post amounts to whataboutery of the worst kind. Fuck Palestinians. They don't matter.

It's a thread about the ongoing genocide in Palestine and the mass murder commited by Hamas guerillas of the 07 October 2023.

However, my post was a response to your comment about the creation of the Israeli state which clearly didn't happen in 2023/2024. Israel emerged in a historical context and central to that emergence was the attempted annihilation of the Jewish population of Europe, which is why I pointed out that there was more than one act of ethnic cleansing and genocide that led to its creation.

Were you "whatabouting" when you brought up the events of 1948 in your posts?

 

[maomao]

I think comments "Judeo-Nazis" and "Chosen People" would count under most definitions of antisemitism. Do you think that such terminology is not antisemitic?

Both of those phrases have legitimate uses. The former was coined by an Israeli academic and the latter is often used by Jews to describe themselves, neither are inherently anti-semitic. And you haven't answered my question.

 

[ID47]

Both of those phrases have legitimate uses. The former was coined by an Israeli academic and the latter is often used by Jews to describe themselves, neither are inherently anti-semitic. And you haven't answered my question.

You are 100% correct, Judeo-Nazi was coined by the Israeli philosopher Yeshshayahu (sp?) Liebowitz and 'chosen people' is of biblical origin, the term is even used in the Holy Quran FFS.

​

 

[tim]

Both of those phrases have legitimate uses. The former was coined by an Israeli academic and the latter is often used by Jews to describe themselves, neither are inherently anti-semitic. And you haven't answered my question.

@id147 use the former in one of their less than academic comments and the term was removed presumably by a moderator after it was reported for being antisemitic. Boris Sprinkler has the latter frequently on this thread - it's almost his catchphrase. It meets my definition of antisemitism. Do you think his use is legitimate?

State of the world and all because some dicks want to pretend to be the chosen people.

further examples

Search results for query: chosen

www.urban75.net

 

[maomao]

@id147 use the former in one of their less than academic comments and the term was removed presumably by a moderator after it was reported for being antisemitic. Boris Sprinkler has the latter frequently on this thread - it's almost his catchphrase. It meets my definition of antisemitism. Do you think his use is legitimate?



further examples

Search results for query: chosen

www.urban75.net

I don't think either post merits a banning and you still haven't answered my question.

 

[mojo pixy]

YOU are doing this. Can you stop derailing this thread and making it all about how people perceive Israel.

Can I suggest that you start your own thread about how people perceive Israel in the context of antisemitism?

No, I'm not 'derailing' this thread; how people 'perceive' Israel is key to how they talk and write about it.

I appreciate the offer to take my posts elsewhere, but I'll decline

 

[mojo pixy]

Fuck Palestinians. They don't matter.

Nobody has posted this or anything amounting to it, except you. Though I assume it's sarcasm.

 

[mojo pixy]

Israel/Palestine still bringing out the very best in the amateur Left.

 

[brogdale]

No, I'm not 'derailing' this thread; how people 'perceive' Israel is key to how they talk and write about it.

I appreciate the offer to take my posts elsewhere, but I'll decline

I'd respectfully add that I think it's also important to appreciate that how people perceive states in general. (inc. Israel), also informs how they talk and write about the Israeli state in this thread. I sometimes think antipathy towards the actions of the Israeli state expressed by those with wider antipathy for the conduct of states is misinterpreted as anti-jewish sentiment.

 

[brogdale]

Israel/Palestine still bringing out the very best in the amateur Left.

That doesn't look like an overly helpful comment, tbh.

 

[tim]

I don't think either post merits a banning and you still haven't answered my question.

Not being an official body, I don't feel bound to comply with some bureaucratic definition of antisemitism such as the IHRC

Here is the OED for you.

anti-Semitic, adj. meanings, etymology and more | Oxford English Dictionary

anti-Semitic, adj. meanings, etymology, pronunciation and more in the Oxford English Dictionary

www.oed.com

To be honest I prefer the term Judeophobia, but either term fits the examples quoted above.

 

[krtek a houby]

Israel/Palestine still bringing out the very best in the amateur Left.

Tbf, it's not a competition

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I'm saying that the creation of Israel lead to mass murder and ethnic cleansing but was also the consequence of ethnic cleansing and genocide, nothing more, nothing less.

The creation of Israel was one possible consequence of ethnic cleansing and genocide, not a mandatory consequence. It was also a consequence of a much longer period of active Zionism in Palestine, prefiguring the Holocaust and the Nazis.

 

[Gramsci]

Updates: Death toll mounts in Gaza, Lebanon as Israel ramps up strikes

Israeli air strike kills at least 10 people at a bustling cafe in southern al-Mawasi as they watched a football match.

www.aljazeera.com

Just had a look at Al Jazeera news feed

Smotrich going on about annexation

Israel state bombing north Gaza

NGOs warning of starvation

As member of "amateur left" I'm pretty upset about all this.

 

[maomao]

Not being an official body, I don't feel bound to comply with some bureaucratic definition of antisemitism such as the IHRC

Here is the OED for you.

You've just suggested that Urban75 ban people guilty of anti-semitism. I'm asking which definition you think should be used for this purpose. If you don't want to be bound by one definition why should we?

The OED one is fairly broad. The problem, again, is that the state of Israel is a manifestation of Jewish culture (not the only one, obviously) so it arguably defines all but the gentlest criticism of the Israeli state as anti-semitism.

 

[tim]

The creation of Israel was one possible consequence of ethnic cleansing and genocide, not a mandatory consequence. It was also a consequence of a much longer period of active Zionism in Palestine, prefiguring the Holocaust and the Nazis.

It was the actual consequence, other consequences did not come to pass.

Zionism did not prefigure the pogroms of the Russian Empire or other frequently violent manifestations of European antisemitism in the Nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

 

[Pickman's model]

Israel/Palestine still bringing out the very best in the amateur Left.

i'll say one thing for the amateur left, they're lagging far behind the professional far-right in their bodycount.

 

[Gramsci]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/11/11/middleeast/israeli-minister-annexation-occupied-west-bank-intl

More on Smotrich- a Zionist.

President-elect Donald Trump’s victory in the US election “brings an important opportunity for the State of Israel,” Smotrich told the Knesset, or Israeli parliament.

The “only way to remove” the “threat” of a Palestinian state, Smotrich added, “is to apply Israeli sovereignty over the entire settlements in Judea and Samaria,” the biblical term by which Israelis refer to the West Bank.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It was the actual consequence, other consequences did not come to pass.

Zionism did not prefigure the pogroms of the Russian Empire or other frequently violent manifestations of European antisemitism in the Nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

You still haven't answered my question. What has this got to do with the Palestinians? What are they supposed to do with this information?

It's so awfully inconvenient that they exist.

This is nothing but apologist whataboutery. What about what was done to Jews in Europe? What about it?

In the context of an ongoing genocide, it's pretty obscene whataboutery.

 

[mojo pixy]

That doesn't look like an overly helpful comment, tbh.

I've been extremely 'helpful' for over a year and it hasn't changed a thing. I don't think anyone wants my 'help', if the replies I'm getting are anything to judge by.

I'm not obliged to be helpful, but I do try to be honest and sincere. For all that's worth.

I'd respectfully add that I think it's also important to appreciate that how people perceive states in general. (inc. Israel), also informs how they talk and write about the Israeli state in this thread. I sometimes think antipathy towards the actions of the Israeli state expressed by those with wider antipathy for the conduct of states is misinterpreted as anti-jewish sentiment.

You'll have to forgive me then, years of dealing with "antizionist" antisemitism has left me a little lacking in the benefit-of-the-doubt stakes.

And it is possible (shockingly) to be an anarchist and still hold antisemitic attitudes. I've actually encountered plenty of this, all my life. Enough to inspire a good deal of distrust, which may be 'unhelpful', but there it is.

 

[brogdale]

I've been extremely 'helpful' for over a year and it hasn't changed a thing. I don't think anyone wants my 'help', if the replies I'm getting are anything to judge by.

I'm not obliged to be helpful, but I do try to be honest and sincere. For all that's worth.


You'll have to forgive me then, years of dealing with "antizionist" antisemitism has left me a little lacking in the benefit-of-the-doubt stakes.

And it is possible (shockingly) to be an anarchist and still hold antisemitic attitudes. I've actually encountered plenty of this, all my life. Enough to inspire a good deal of distrust, which may be 'unhelpful', but there it is.

Probably best that we're open about how we feel and where we're coming from.

 

[Gramsci]

I wasn't going to post this yet. But considering recent posts I will put it up.

It's first part of interview with Israeli historian Raz Segal. Historian specialising in Holocaust and Genocide studies.

I've not read him. He came up in news as turned down for a job after lobbying by pro Zionist Jewish group.

This first part is autobiographical look at his intellectual journey.

Next week part two I believe will be more on the politics

He comes from, in his words, a Liberal Zionist background. Which he's gradually moved away from.

If I remember correctly what he says of his liberal Zionist upbringing is a that Holocaust is unique, Israel is unique and anti semitism in Europe drove Zionism

His first intellectual change was doing the hippy trail after national service in army. Came across book by Arundhati Roy

The Greater Common Good: Dams, Development, and Democracy in India

Which had big effect on him. As showed how other people had community destroyed.

He went back to Israel to study the Holocaust.

Here is where my knowledge is limited.

What I think he's saying is that Israeli historiography of the Holocaust follows liberal Zionism. The Holocaust is unique.

He went to do PHD abroad. Went to archives in eastern Europe ( Ukraine) to study Jewish life. What he found was more complex than he'd been brought up to think in Israel.

Anti semitism in Europe but also, if I get him right, co existence.

The overall impression I got from him was that he didn't reject the liberal Zionism he got in Israel. It's that he gradually moved away from it intellectually. Doesn't sound like he's getting a visceral dislike of it now . More that his view on it has changed.

I hope next week he goes more into his historical research and it's effect on him

To add it's a thoughtful interview. He's not banging people over the head with his views. Quietly explaining how he changed.

 

[zahir]

Interview with Israeli historian Adam Raz on Netanyahu's relationship with Hamas

The not-so-secret history of Netanyahu's support for Hamas

From sabotaging Oslo to funneling Qatari cash into Gaza, Bibi has spent his career bolstering Hamas to help perpetuate the conflict.

www.972mag.com