Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Idris2002]

Yea, even Bush seemed less pro Israel than Biden. Harris doesn't seem particularly pro Israel though

Starmer is roughly my age - so he would have grown up after the wave of Holocaust studies that emerged after the 1960s, and which heavily influenced school teaching about the war, which hadn't foregrounded the Shoah much before then. I mean, I'm just old enough to remember the "Israel is the world's only genuinely socialist state" stuff, which has been gone for a long time about now. But quite possibly Starmer remembers.

 

[frogwoman]

Starmer is roughly my age - so he would have grown up after the wave of Holocaust studies that emerged after the 1960s, and which heavily influenced school teaching about the war, which hadn't foregrounded the Shoah much before then. I mean, I'm just old enough to remember the "Israel is the world's only genuinely socialist state" stuff, which has been gone for a long time about now. But quite possibly Starmer remembers.

If Starmer of all people was thinking about how Israel was a socialist state, he would be waving palestine flags around by now. hard to see how this could influence him given his other views I think

There's a significant current on the German left that are still like this

 

[frogwoman]

Some random thoughts off the top of my head.
1. Western leaders prior to this generation were pro-Israel (generally) but not to this degree. The next generational shift among the mainstream elites isn't likely to reproduce the same loyalties, world-view etc., of the present lot, at least not entirely.
2. The Americans will be the last to go, but go they will. The bipartisan consensus on Israel is the last of the bipartisan consensuses there will ever be over there, for a long time to come at least.
3. Re: facilitating antisemitism - there were always anti-semites who were pro-Zionist, and that particular toxic mix has never gone away completely.

Just some random thoughts, that's all. . . .

Yeah I'm not convinced of her argument about not wanting to do this with a Jewish state at all frankly. I mean everything is 'unthinkable' until it isn't and even countries like The Netherlands have suspended arms sales to Israel.

What do you think will have to happen for America to shift on this? For all the rhetoric from the US left on this the actual hierarchy in both parties seem resolutely pro Israel

 

[agricola]

agricola Idris2002 and others who know about this stuff - what do you think would need to happen for some sort of sanctions to be imposed? I saw someone arguing on twitter that they never would because no leader of a western country would want to be the ones to undertake interventions against a Jewish state. Being Jewish, I find this an unconvincing argument to say the least - various western countries have found it quite easy to ignore or even facilitate antisemitism when it suited them. But what would it actually take?

I wouldn’t call myself an expert by any means but personally I think this is probably one of those things where it will probably be some random act that kicks them (sanctions and diplomatic breaches) off, with very little warning or logic to it (given the horrors already witnessed) and going from token things to a complete breach of diplomatic relations very quickly.

One of the negative consequences for Zionism of all the pro-Israel lobbying of the past thirty years is that it’s largely removed the “I wouldn’t do that if I were you” type of genuine pro-Israeli politicians who could have plausibly kept a lid on things by correcting / trying to correct the worse excesses, in favour of ideologues, people going along with Zionism for their own ends and propagandists all supporting whatever the Israeli state does.

None of the leadership now are genuinely engaging with the unprecedentedly large pro-Palestinian mood on the country, and the end result is that there is probably a wider gap on this issue between the political leadership of the country and the rest of it (and I mean here the old establishment and the people) than ever before. That sort of thing usually ends up with the leadership caving in sooner rather than later.

 

[frogwoman]

I wouldn’t call myself an expert by any means but personally I think this is probably one of those things where it will probably be some random act that kicks them (sanctions and diplomatic breaches) off, with very little warning or logic to it (given the horrors already witnessed) and going from token things to a complete breach of diplomatic relations very quickly.

One of the negative consequences for Zionism of all the pro-Israel lobbying of the past thirty years is that it’s largely removed the “I wouldn’t do that if I were you” type of genuine pro-Israeli politicians who could have plausibly kept a lid on things by correcting / trying to correct the worse excesses, in favour of ideologues, people going along with Zionism for their own ends and propagandists all supporting whatever the Israeli state does.

None of the leadership now are genuinely engaging with the unprecedentedly large pro-Palestinian mood on the country, and the end result is that there is probably a wider gap on this issue between the political leadership of the country and the rest of it (and I mean here the old establishment and the people) than ever before. That sort of thing usually ends up with the leadership caving in sooner rather than later.

So like 'Starmer sees something on TV he doesn't like' sort of thing rather than anything 'logical'? Or like eg Ben Gvir calling beloved national treasure like say David Attenborough an antisemite or that sort of thing

 

[Gramsci]

agricola Idris2002 and others who know about this stuff - what do you think would need to happen for some sort of sanctions to be imposed? I saw someone arguing on twitter that they never would because no leader of a western country would want to be the ones to undertake interventions against a Jewish state. Being Jewish, I find this an unconvincing argument to say the least - various western countries have found it quite easy to ignore or even facilitate antisemitism when it suited them. But what would it actually take?

Reform of the UN- America and this country use vetos

At present US and UK will use veto to prop up Israel. Remove countries being able to veto.

There is a shift with global south using international law. South Africa taking action and bringing case for Genocide.

International law is not to be underestimated.

UN did play a bigger role in supporting Palestinians in the past. The non aligned states came to prominence for a while and backed Palestinians. Back In 1975 UN general assembly agrred that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.

With the peace process as part of the agreement this was dropped by UN. But peace process is dead and buried.

Building on the cases brought to ICJ and the advisory on the Occupation being illegal under international law then UN could take bigger role.

What has happened so far would not have if people all over the world had not mobilised in support of Palestinians in Gaza. I'd also say the pressure of public opinion across the world is important.

 

[agricola]

So like 'Starmer sees something on TV he doesn't like' sort of thing rather than anything 'logical'? Or like eg Ben Gvir calling beloved national treasure like say David Attenborough an antisemite or that sort of thing

More like something happening that the leadership can't or hesitates to defend - another strike on British aid workers / medics, one of the few churches being flattened or even just some daily horror (women and kids being bombed / shot for example) that for some reason connects with everyone on that occasion.

 

[PTK]

Starmer is roughly my age - so he would have grown up after the wave of Holocaust studies that emerged after the 1960s, and which heavily influenced school teaching about the war, which hadn't foregrounded the Shoah much before then. I mean, I'm just old enough to remember the "Israel is the world's only genuinely socialist state" stuff, which has been gone for a long time about now. But quite possibly Starmer remembers.

I was not taught anything about the Second World War at school in the 1960s and 1970s, certainly not about the genocide.

 

[yield]

More like something happening that the leadership can't or hesitates to defend - another strike on British aid workers / medics, one of the few churches being flattened or even just some daily horror (women and kids being bombed / shot for example) that for some reason connects with everyone on that occasion.

Some event, a tipping point. Like two-year Aylan Kurdi old who washed up on a Turkish beach after their boat capsized?

Probably why the IDF target journalists.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/01/13/509650251/study-what-was-the-impact-of-the-iconic-photo-of-the-syrian-boy

In other words, you can identify with an individual but not so easily with an abstract statistic?

I was not taught anything about the Second World War at school in the 1960s and 1970s, certainly not about the genocide.

Studied it in GCSE history a decade or two after you.

 

[frogwoman]

I've never heard of this podcast. I don't know if we have any Israelis on here let alone looking at this thread but the article claims it's one of the most popular in Israel? Would anyone be able to verify this? I find it deeply disturbing if so.

Popular Israeli podcasters call to ‘erase every living being’ in Gaza and West Bank

Naor Meningher and Eytan Weinstein say the Israeli government should 'instil sovereignty over and annex the West Bank, Gaza… make it all Israel'

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[teqniq]

I've never heard of this podcast. I don't know if we have any Israelis on here let alone looking at this thread but the article claims it's one of the most popular in Israel? Would anyone be able to verify this? I find it deeply disturbing if so.

Popular Israeli podcasters call to ‘erase every living being’ in Gaza and West Bank

Naor Meningher and Eytan Weinstein say the Israeli government should 'instil sovereignty over and annex the West Bank, Gaza… make it all Israel'

www.middleeasteye.net

This has been all over Twitter the last couple of days. I decided not to watch as I would have found it too depressing.

 

[Gramsci]

Colonialism gets a bad rap- according to a Texan who went to live in Israel.

It comes across as a spoof of what a Zionist is.

Abi Wilkinson points out the way she puts her point across is crude but she reflects mainstream thinking of the Israeli right who run Israel.

What the Texan is saying is in line with old Zionist thinking. That Palestinians should be moved out of Israel to make way for Jews. The old idea of population transfer going back too the 1930s. That Palestinians are not an ethnic group so its wrong to say the are being ethnically cleansed. This is also not new idea. Underlying it is also old Zionist idea that Palestinians are Arabs and Arab have whole of middle east to live in so why can't they move aside for Jews.

Walker rightly quotes the famous Tony Judt article where he said Zionism is now a historical anachronism. What the Texan was saying was normal to say in 19c but now it comes across as bonkers. Except that this is not marginal thinking.

I almost laughed at some points watching this. As she says it with happy smiley face. But this is how ethnic cleansing happens. She honestly and truly believes what she is saying.

Why Zionism gets any support now is beyond me

 

[mojo pixy]

I've never heard of this podcast. I don't know if we have any Israelis on here let alone looking at this thread but the article claims it's one of the most popular in Israel? Would anyone be able to verify this? I find it deeply disturbing if so.

Popular Israeli podcasters call to ‘erase every living being’ in Gaza and West Bank

Naor Meningher and Eytan Weinstein say the Israeli government should 'instil sovereignty over and annex the West Bank, Gaza… make it all Israel'

www.middleeasteye.net

According to their biogs, Weinstein is American and Meningher used to work for Bibi as a digital content manager. I'm sure they speak for some 'silent majority' in the fictional way right-wing grifters always like to claim they do.

However, Israeli society has IMO been widely radicalised these last few years, in part because more and more reasonable people leave and get replaced by new immigrant headbangers (eg pretty much anyone who's made aliyah in the last 10 months or so, ffs who else would immigrate there now??) So maybe these two have a broader reach than I think.

I'm well out of touch though tbf so just musing.

 

[TopCat]

Some parts are sent to a third country from UK and then exported to Israel. The government says this is not included. Even though the final destination includes of course Israel.

End user certification applies no?

 

[teqniq]

The source for this has been posted by someone else in the replies. I have attached the letter and the appendix:

 

[agricola]

Some event, a tipping point. Like two-year Aylan Kurdi old who washed up on a Turkish beach after their boat capsized?

Probably why the IDF target journalists.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/01/13/509650251/study-what-was-the-impact-of-the-iconic-photo-of-the-syrian-boy

Studied it in GCSE history a decade or two after you.

I was more thinking of Phoenix the Calf, but yes something like that

 

[frogwoman]

The source for this has been posted by someone else in the replies. I have attached the letter and the appendix:

I couldn't find where 368,000 was mentioned in that report, it seems that someone extrapolated it from the 92,000 figure? (Which is bad enough ofc, and probably a huge undercount)

 

[teqniq]

I couldn't find where 368,000 was mentioned in that report, it seems that someone extrapolated it from the 92,000 figure? (Which is bad enough ofc, and probably a huge undercount)

I believe you are correct, I think it is an extrapolation. Here is an explanation:

 

[Pickman's model]

I couldn't find where 368,000 was mentioned in that report, it seems that someone extrapolated it from the 92,000 figure? (Which is bad enough ofc, and probably a huge undercount)

And they're not done yet

 

[frogwoman]

And they're not done yet

I can't really get my head around those sort of numbers tbh. Applied to the city where I live, the 92,000 figure would mean that 6700 people had died (been killed). People would be talking about it for years.

 

[frogwoman]

And they're not done yet

They are gonna end up killing everyone in Gaza if this carries on.

 

[agricola]

I believe you are correct, I think it is an extrapolation. Here is an explanation:

View attachment 441257

The one thing that I think counts against this much larger figure is that the level of precision of deaths and injuries seen so far suggests they’d find it not that hard to find out the numbers “missing” (under rubble, blown to bits, abducted and imprisoned / killed etc) and publish that.

 

[frogwoman]

The one thing that I think counts against this much larger figure is that the level of precision of deaths and injuries seen so far suggests they’d find it not that hard to find out the numbers “missing” (under rubble, blown to bits, abducted and imprisoned / killed etc) and publish that.

Yeah I can't find where in their letter it's saying that the 92k refers to only direct casualties? I may have missed it though. I really hope that the numbers are on the low side of those estimates

 

[Pickman's model]

They are gonna end up killing everyone in Gaza if this carries on.

I think that's their aim

 

[Pickman's model]

The one thing that I think counts against this much larger figure is that the level of precision of deaths and injuries seen so far suggests they’d find it not that hard to find out the numbers “missing” (under rubble, blown to bits, abducted and imprisoned / killed etc) and publish that.

When whole families have been killed it may be no one is left to report them

 

[frogwoman]

I think that's their aim

Even though the international community is not doing a lot about it now do they actually think that they can do this and everyone will do nothing whatsoever? The Israeli economy has suffered hugely from this:

Money has dried up, and Israeli startups are folding one after another

***

www.haaretz.com

Are Netanyahu etc really deluded enough to think everyone will think 'Yeah that's fine'

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Special interest: charging interest?
We need a shift of the banking model surely. Or is that the elephant in the room?

 

[teqniq]

Even though the international community is not doing a lot about it now do they actually think that they can do this and everyone will do nothing whatsoever? The Israeli economy has suffered hugely from this:

Money has dried up, and Israeli startups are folding one after another

***

www.haaretz.com

Are Netanyahu etc really deluded enough to think everyone will think 'Yeah that's fine'

The only nation that could really conceivably make a real difference right now is the US and right now the current administration's attitude seems to really be 'Yeah that's fine'.

 

[frogwoman]

Also, I'm reminded that a large number of companies withdrew their investments from Russia shortly after the war when it emerged that Russia was appropriating property and things like planes and just stealing products due to sanctions and also because they were needed for the war effort, people being arrested at random etc as well. If the ownership of something means nothing and some settler can just walk into a property and declare that he has a god given right to it, or even foreign nationals etc risk being shot for no reason then that's got to make international investors wary of business in Israel surely. And indeed it is, because it says in that article many are pulling out.

And then there are the benefits of doing business in Israel (which have got to be shrinking) vs both the risks of how the country is run and the damage that is done to the brand, there are boycotts of products like McDonald's and Starbucks etc due to even perceived association with Israel across the middle east and the damage that is being done is immense. I don't see how they can literally afford to keep doing this, the only explanation is that they're driven by total fanaticism and they are not going to listen to anything.

 

[agricola]

When whole families have been killed it may be no one is left to report them

That’s true but they’d still have neighbours, friends, colleagues and so on.