Hamas released a very slickly produced, Hamas branded teaser video yesterday of the last words of the 6 hostages. Sick fucks. I notice no major media organisation is airing it or even mentioning it which is I guess a good thing. Must be fucking heartbreaking for those families.
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Suspending some arms licenses but specifically not doing an arms embargo is typical Labour party fudge and is going to please no one.
However the very fact that they have stopped some is symbolically important.
I don't think the Labour government would have done this if it had not seen independent MPs get elected on a Gaza ticket. Or the large demos month after month. Plus MPs getting loads of emails about this.
However they brush it off independent MPs getting elected at a general election and now forming a bloc cannot be ignored.
I also have some sympathy for David Lammy due to the pressure he must be under from mainstream Jewish leaders in UK.
www.jpost.com
Board of Deputies of British Jews are calling for a review of the governments decision soon.
And say they are talking to both Israel and UK government:
So this could be reversed or watered down. And the pressure on David Lammy will not end with this decision
I expect David Lammy and government decided to do an option that they thought would get some support.
Alas no.
However the very fact that they have stopped some is symbolically important.
I don't think the Labour government would have done this if it had not seen independent MPs get elected on a Gaza ticket. Or the large demos month after month. Plus MPs getting loads of emails about this.
However they brush it off independent MPs getting elected at a general election and now forming a bloc cannot be ignored.
I also have some sympathy for David Lammy due to the pressure he must be under from mainstream Jewish leaders in UK.
Chief rabbi, British Jews criticize UK decision to restrict arms sales to Israel
Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis said that the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development's Office's suspension of almost 30 of the around 350 arms licenses to Israel "beggars belief."
www.jpost.com
Board of Deputies of British Jews are calling for a review of the governments decision soon.
And say they are talking to both Israel and UK government:
So this could be reversed or watered down. And the pressure on David Lammy will not end with this decision
I expect David Lammy and government decided to do an option that they thought would get some support.
Alas no.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
About fucking time:
UK suspends 30 arms export licences to Israel after review
Foreign Office says review found ‘clear risk’ UK arms may be used in violation of humanitarian lawwww.theguardian.com
However:
View attachment 440917
Some parts are sent to a third country from UK and then exported to Israel. The government says this is not included. Even though the final destination includes of course Israel.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Surprising response from Labour Friends of Israel.
I would have thought that LFI as its membership contains MPs would have accepted Labour government decision.
I wonder if any MPs in LFI will lose the whip. Like those MPs who supported two child benefit cap being lifted.
I would have thought that LFI as its membership contains MPs would have accepted Labour government decision.
I wonder if any MPs in LFI will lose the whip. Like those MPs who supported two child benefit cap being lifted.
PTK
Paul Kegan
The video is being shown in part by Sky, and the Jerusalem Post.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
reasonable response by Labour Friends of Palestine on stopping of some arms supplies
Whilst supporting what has been done they say this is first step. And more can be done.
This is going to be a problem for the government as both pro Palestine and pro Israel MPs are going to be pushing David Lammy to review what arms have been stopped.
So the fudge that the government has done is not going to be the end of the matter
Whilst supporting what has been done they say this is first step. And more can be done.
This is going to be a problem for the government as both pro Palestine and pro Israel MPs are going to be pushing David Lammy to review what arms have been stopped.
So the fudge that the government has done is not going to be the end of the matter
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Suspending some arms licenses but specifically not doing an arms embargo is typical Labour party fudge and is going to please no one.
However the very fact that they have stopped some is symbolically important.
I don't think the Labour government would have done this if it had not seen independent MPs get elected on a Gaza ticket. Or the large demos month after month. Plus MPs getting loads of emails about this.
However they brush it off independent MPs getting elected at a general election and now forming a bloc cannot be ignored.
I also have some sympathy for David Lammy due to the pressure he must be under from mainstream Jewish leaders in UK.
Chief rabbi, British Jews criticize UK decision to restrict arms sales to Israel
Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis said that the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development's Office's suspension of almost 30 of the around 350 arms licenses to Israel "beggars belief."
Board of Deputies of British Jews are calling for a review of the governments decision soon.
And say they are talking to both Israel and UK government:
So this could be reversed or watered down. And the pressure on David Lammy will not end with this decision
I expect David Lammy and government decided to do an option that they thought would get some support.
Alas no.
I think there is zero chance of it being watered down - for a start, there is the ongoing legal action (that this step was probably intended to try and forestall) around the review of all these licences. The law there is pretty clear that we should not be exporting weapons to states committing / appearing to commit human rights abuses / breaches of international law and there is plentiful evidence that such abuses are being committed dozens of times a day across Gaza and the West Bank (to say nothing of what has been done in Lebanon and Iran in terms of breaches of international law). When the ICC / ICJ cases are thrown into it, as well as the fact we are already sanctioning various state-sponsored settler activists, there is going to have to be a dozen Bob Massingbirds appearing for the Government to win that case.
More importantly though is the lack of any reason to restore these licences. The Israeli government, unless it is removed, is only going to change course to select a worse option; the British government isn't going to get any positive thing from backing them either. Even the pro-Israel lobby is weaker than normal at the moment, given the lack of any upcoming election and no Tory alternative to boost.
I can see further licences being suspended and quite quickly, albeit not for the F-35 stuff (which would probably see our participation in the programme suspended and it is a lot easier to argue that the F-35 is probably the least useful of the combat aircraft that the IDF has in terms of committing offences in the occupied territories anyway).
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
I think its almost certain that at most one or two LFI MPs saw that before it went out - the language is almost trolling, eg: "Israel has come under repeated, unprovoked and indiscriminate attack by Iran and its proxies....".
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Luke Akehurst is an MP iirc
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
It certainly reads like previous output of his.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
He's just a lukidnik troll if I remember right, I guess he wouldn't lose the whip for this but maybe for something else like umm lack of competence or something
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
The Israel/ Zionist lobby in UK are seriously pissing me off now Ive seen their response to David Lammy very limited stopping of arms to Israel.
Chief Rabbi/ Labour Friends of Israel/ Board of Deputies of British Jews
Reading what they say and one would think no large scale Palestinian deaths of civilians and the IDF go out of their way to avoid civilian casualties.
I find it bordering on racist attitude to Palestinians. They just don't matter. Israeli whatever the government is should be allowed to do what It wants and this country should support it. Even if its a government of the far right.
Chief Rabbi/ Labour Friends of Israel/ Board of Deputies of British Jews
Reading what they say and one would think no large scale Palestinian deaths of civilians and the IDF go out of their way to avoid civilian casualties.
I find it bordering on racist attitude to Palestinians. They just don't matter. Israeli whatever the government is should be allowed to do what It wants and this country should support it. Even if its a government of the far right.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it's well past the border
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
CAAT report proven use of F35 in Gaza
CAAT - Government exempts F-35 from export licence suspension – on same day evidence emerges Israel used it in attack on Gaza ‘safe zone’
The Danish news outlet Information, together with NGO Danwatch, revealed today that, for the first time, it has been possible to definitively confirm the use by Israel of an F-35 stealth fighter to carry out a specific attack in Gaza. The UK arms industry produces 15% of every F-35 made...
caat.org.uk
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
CAAT report proven use of F35 in Gaza
CAAT - Government exempts F-35 from export licence suspension – on same day evidence emerges Israel used it in attack on Gaza ‘safe zone’
The Danish news outlet Information, together with NGO Danwatch, revealed today that, for the first time, it has been possible to definitively confirm the use by Israel of an F-35 stealth fighter to carry out a specific attack in Gaza. The UK arms industry produces 15% of every F-35 made...
They are used, but they don’t clearly need a fifth-gen low observability aircraft to drop guided and unguided munitions over an area that doesn’t even have radar, never mind air defences above the level of man portable things.
It would be a lot easier to defend supplying bits for one of them than it would be, for example, for prison equipment.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
My link shows evidence of them being used in Gaza. As article states getting hard evidence is difficult.
As its proven they are being used then what is the defence for supplying bits?
As its clear from article Yoav Gallant went to tell the pilots well done lads keep it up.
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
All of this, and also the Government are doing this for legal reasons, not moral or political ones. (I'm not defending the Government - IMHO, and no doubt most of you on here, they should be doing it for moral reasons, and going a lot further so we're not supplying any arms to Israel).
The legal advice on this needs to be made public.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I was listening to the rapporteur on Palestinian Francesca Albanese last night.
She was saying the anti Genocide international agreements that UK is signed up to means it and other countries should be looking at how to avoid Genocide.
Her reading of the agreements is that they are not just about saying its happening ( wait until its categorically proven) but also, if as ICJ say there is a possibility its happening, they must step in.
That means UK and other countries signed up to the Genocide convention should do due diligence on all relations to Israel.
She also said recent ruling on Occupation being illegal adds another element.
As other countries should address relations with Israel on that as well
She said the due diligence should include military, diplomatic and economic relations.
Basically she say international law and the recent ruling of the ICJ mean boycotts / disinvestment and arms embargoes.
I'm not so be sure moral helps. All sides say they are moral. I just want the government to do it's job.
If a rules based order matters then countries like UK should step up to the plate and follow international rules based order for Israel. And end Israeli exceptionalism.
UK government should just do its job and follow the rules based order it supposedly says its in favour of.
The argument put forward by the Zionists/ Israeli lobby in this country is in fact the one that is going against the international rules based order set up after WW2.
It's them that are being unreasonable.
Agree David Lammy should publish the legal advice. And make clear decisions making process on why some weapons were stopped and not others.
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teqniq
DisMembered
I think, in retrospect that it was fairly obvious that something like this was going on, likewise the refusal to reinstate UNWRA funding. Completely disgusting. Cameron is directly complicit in war crimes but it is vanishingly unlikely that he will face any accountability:
www.theguardian.com
David Cameron sat on advice that there was breach of law in Gaza, officials say
The former foreign secretary is said to have been advised on the risk of UK complicity
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
They're the only words he has. Bernie grant must be spinning in his grave to have such a turd succeed him as mp for tottenham
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
We might need to depend on a higher tribunal than any here on earthI think, in retrospect that it was fairly obvious that something like this was going on, likewise the refusal to reinstate UNWRA funding. Completely disgusting. Cameron is directly complicit in war crimes but it is vanishingly unlikely that he will face any accountability:
David Cameron sat on advice that there was breach of law in Gaza, officials say
The former foreign secretary is said to have been advised on the risk of UK complicity
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
agricola Idris2002 and others who know about this stuff - what do you think would need to happen for some sort of sanctions to be imposed? I saw someone arguing on twitter that they never would because no leader of a western country would want to be the ones to undertake interventions against a Jewish state. Being Jewish, I find this an unconvincing argument to say the least - various western countries have found it quite easy to ignore or even facilitate antisemitism when it suited them. But what would it actually take?
Idris2002
Christmas Eve, you know?
Some random thoughts off the top of my head.
1. Western leaders prior to this generation were pro-Israel (generally) but not to this degree. The next generational shift among the mainstream elites isn't likely to reproduce the same loyalties, world-view etc., of the present lot, at least not entirely.
2. The Americans will be the last to go, but go they will. The bipartisan consensus on Israel is the last of the bipartisan consensuses there will ever be over there, for a long time to come at least.
3. Re: facilitating antisemitism - there were always anti-semites who were pro-Zionist, and that particular toxic mix has never gone away completely.
Just some random thoughts, that's all. . . .
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Yea, even Bush seemed less pro Israel than Biden. Harris doesn't seem particularly pro Israel though
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The proof will be after Jan 20 if she wins
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