Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[_Russ_]

Listening to Barbara Woodward yesterday made me feel quite sick certainly made it clear that UK will be standing by USA and Israel and any atrocities commited by the good guys will be double-speaked away

 

[hash tag]

I'm not convinced there are any "good guys" in this. There have been many atrocities committed by all sides in this.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not convinced there are any "good guys" in this. There have been many atrocities committed by all sides in this.

this isn't a football game or some sort of western where there's 'goodies' and 'baddies'. the situation's been skewed by decades of zionist horrors and it's no real surprise that various parties to the imbroglio have behaved at times in ways which we find sickening. in a way i'm reminded of the visceral hatreds depicted by robert e howard in his conan story 'red nails'. but despite this there are plenty of good guys, people who have tried to keep alive the better angels of humanity in the face of the zionsts' vicious intolerance.

 

[hash tag]

this isn't a football game or some sort of western where there's 'goodies' and 'baddies'. the situation's been skewed by decades of zionist horrors and it's no real surprise that various parties to the imbroglio have behaved at times in ways which we find sickening. in a way i'm reminded of the visceral hatreds depicted by robert e howard in his conan story 'red nails'. but despite this there are plenty of good guys, people who have tried to keep alive the better angels of humanity in the face of the zionsts' vicious intolerance.

Simply quoting Russ in their earlier post and yes I agree with you, it trivialises it and makes it sound like a film from the 50's.

 

[tim]

It appears that whoever killed Haniyeh may have taken the Brighton option rather than firing a targeted rocket. Perhaps security was shit or maybe factions in the Irabian regime are not so Hamas friendly.

Bomb Smuggled Into Tehran Guesthouse Months Ago Killed Hamas Leader

An explosive device hidden in a heavily guarded complex where Ismail Haniyeh was known to stay in Iran was what killed him, according to a Times investigation.

www.nytimes.com

 

[_Russ_]

I'm not convinced there are any "good guys" in this. There have been many atrocities committed by all sides in this.

Not apparent I was using the term sarcastically?

 

[hash tag]

Not apparent I was using the term sarcastically?

I don't doubt it but it seems to have grown out of proportion

 

[_Russ_]

I've probably posted this classic before but fuck it...

 

[hash tag]

What's happened has happened and there is no turning the clock back. My concerns for now are Lebanon and especially Iran getting drawn into the conflict. There is no telling where it will end if they do.

 

[Gramsci]

I'm afraid that the more Israel feels like its getting pushed into a corner, the more likely it is to resort to the Samson option. . .

I thought agricola post was pretty reasonable.

How does what Agricola say constitute pushing Israel into a corner?

What I believe agricola was saying is that given Israeli government actions in Gaza Israel is starting to lose international support.

So some more cooler heads might not want to rise to Israel government provocations as internationally Israel is losing the PR battle.

At least that's how I read what agricola is saying.

To add

For example the rulings by ICJ on the occupied territories and some time ago the wall State of Israel built as well as SA bringing case against Israel state for genocide show that non violent use of international law can start to put pressure on state of Israel.

Also the world wide demonstrations in support of Palestinians.

There's been a section of Palestinian civil society calling for international support for years.

And it looks now like it might be bearing fruit.

All to the good I would have thought.

 

[hash tag]

No one appears to be taking any notice of the ICJ. They have ruled many times on some of the things happening.
A recent snippet from the FT
"The UN court found that virtually every Israeli action in the territory violated international law. "
It's still happening unabated.

 

[agricola]

I thought agricola post was pretty reasonable.

How does what Agricola say constitute pushing Israel into a corner?

What I believe agricola was saying is that given Israeli government actions in Gaza Israel is starting to lose international support.

So some more cooler heads might not want to rise to Israel government provocations as internationally Israel is losing the PR battle.

At least that's how I read what agricola is saying.

To add

For example the rulings by ICJ on the occupied territories and some time ago the wall State of Israel built as well as SA bringing case against Israel state for genocide show that non violent use of international law can start to put pressure on state of Israel.

Also the world wide demonstrations in support of Palestinians.

There's been a section of Palestinian civil society calling for international support for years.

And it looks now like it might be bearing fruit.

All to the good I would have thought.

TBF I did say that further escalation by the Israeli government to entice a response was also possible, though perhaps I should have qualified that with "by the Israeli government or parts of it".

Certainly given what happened when they made a token effort to arrest a small number of insignificant people who'd committed an especially unjustifiable and serious war crime, one might think that a more serious attempt to stop the blatant war crimes / bring about a ceasefire might result in a considerable and violent reaction from within the IDF, the police and settler groups. What would happen then, and who would be left in power, is anyone's guess. Perhaps the US would do the right thing and finally bring about a regime change that everyone can get behind.

 

[agricola]

Please forgive the long cut and paste (and of an auto-translated tweet), but I think this is a very clear assessment of where Israel is at the moment:

300 days to the war - summary of the assessment of the situation -

1. Israel, even after the failures of the ship and Shukur, is at a severe, multidimensional strategic disadvantage. political-strategic, security, legal, moral, economic.

2. The gap between reality and the perception of reality, among significant sections of the Israeli public, and among most members of the government and the coalition - is a huge and extremely dangerous gap.

3. Netanyahu, who understands well the dimensions of the failure and is not detached from reality, decided to increase the amount of the bet. He ignites an all-out regional war, forces Iran to be drawn into it directly, hopes to force the US to be drawn into it as well, and has no ability to shape the results of this war.

4. The American administration is at a point of historical weakness, the result of an accumulation of 'processes' and unfortunate circumstances.

5. Europe is focused on the war in Ukraine, the Russian threat and the threat of the Trump administration 2.0.

6. Russia and China recognize an opportunity to continue to erode the world order and American hegemony, both through the war in Ukraine, and through the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and a regional war in the Middle East at the worst possible time for the United States.

7. Iran is in a very good position. It has become a vital link in the Russian-Chinese-CPK axis, and it has proven that the "Ring of Fire" model through proxies works perfectly, and Israel has no answer to it. The countermeasures in Tehran do indeed embarrass it severely, but it will respond to it, and it is not a game changer at the strategic level.

8. The American attempt to form an anti-Iranian coalition, which on the eve of 7/10 seemed to be ripening (the American-Saudi defense agreement, normalization with Israel, "NATO Middle East"); was actually thwarted by Sinawar's decisive strategic move, In my opinion, in significant Iranian involvement, in the 7/10 attack, in the entry of Hezbollah and the Houthis into the campaign, and in the conduct of a successful war of attrition against Israel.

9. It is true that this coalition worked well on "the night of the missiles" and proved its potential, and it is hoped that in the coming days and weeks it will also help Israel deal with the expected Iranian reaction, which will probably be multi-arena. But Netanyahu's refusal to accept the Biden outline already many months ago thwarted the big move, prevented Israel from a historic strategic achievement, and dug us a huge hole that will be very difficult to get out of.

10. This morning we are on the verge of a severe and uncontrollable deterioration, under extremely difficult opening conditions, when the government is run by a clearly incompetent person, who knowingly endangers national security, destroys the present and destroys the future of all of us, solely for the sake of his survival in power and evading the law Justice for his multiple crimes and misdeeds, before and after 7/10.The government consists of a collection of impersonalists, with a diverse composition of messiahs, dodgers, corrupters, cowards and opportunists. The decision-making mechanisms are paralyzed and dysfunctional. The gatekeepers are deterred and weakened.

11. The top of the IDF and the security system are at a loss. They understand the situation and the seriousness of the situation very well, but are afraid to take a position in public, and Netanyahu recognizes their weakness and exploits it.

12. Let's say this in the sharpest way - in a regional war in the current context and timing, Israel will not win. under no circumstances. Israel is much more vulnerable than any of its enemies, and certainly from the "strangle ring" coalition as a collective.The absorption capacity of the Houthis, of Hezbollah and Lebanon, and certainly of Iran, is much greater than that of Israel. A country small in its territory and population, modern, Western, immersed up to its neck in a 300-day war in which it is not winning, should not initiate a more extensive war with stronger enemies than Hamas. A country that all its friends demand from it to stop the war and go to an agreement for the release of hostages and a cease-fire, should not reject these proposals with contempt, and expect overwhelming support in the form of arms shipments, a veto in the UN, and the stopping of the war under conditions favorable to Israel. This will not happen.A country whose economy is already in the worst crisis since 1973, should not raise the stakes and burden the economy with another unbearably heavy burden. A country whose reserve forces are worn out, and whose regular army is damaged, should not send them into a more difficult war without being able to end it on good terms.And of course, a country where only a very specific part of its population bears the burden, and this part is mostly not represented in the government; A government that increases the burden on that part, and continues to allow the evasion and inaction of the parts it represents; A government that has no public legitimacy, that 70% and more demand its resignation in disgrace, that has demonstrated incompetence and abuse of office since its inception, such a government cannot expand the war.

13. All the jingoists (war mongers) in the government, the media, the networks and the public are required to answer one question - what is the realistic end state of the regional war that you encourage? What does the agreement that will end the war with Lebanon look like? What does the agreement that will end the war with Iran look like? After all, you don't even have a convincing answer for the "day after" in Gaza, which is the simplest, smallest and weakest of all these arenas...The truth is that none of them has any answer or even the edge of an answer. Israel cannot "overcome" Iran alone. It outnumbers us by a lot. This is even greater than the US, not theoretically but practically, see the Iraq entry. Israel cannot even "overcome" Hezbollah, nor reliably "remove the threat" for many years. Worse, the US in its current weakness, and in the state of its relations With Russia and China, it will be very difficult for Israel to close this war. It will need not only Iranian consent - which of course will come with a heavy price tag - but also Russian and Chinese consent, and these two powers have no interest in shortening the campaign. on the contrary. They have an interest in prolonging it, exposing the short-handedness of the US, which "is not even capable of restraining Israel", benefiting (Iran and Russia, not China) from the rise in oil prices and its expected effect on the elections in the US, and in general tilting the balance even more The global power in their direction.This means that Israel could degenerate into very long months of war of an intensity it has never experienced, and I will spare more detailed descriptions here.

14. All studios, commentators and media were supposed to deal with all of this, and only this. But they are conducted - not all and not all the time, but most of them - in a kind of parallel universe. In this universe, Israel only has to decide, to be "offensive", and then in a very short time (weeks? months?) Hezbollah will kneel before us, Iran will kiss Netanyahu's ring, and the Hutim will ask to convert. Even experienced people, who were supposed to be sober, if not before then after the last 300 days, mutter "we have no choice, we must remove the threat, even if the price will be heavy". Well, the price will be prohibitive, and the threat will not be removed.

15. My friend Aron Miller, the former State Department official, who together and separately plowed the fields of peace processes in the Middle East for decades, wrote a sad, sober and difficult tweet yesterday -Whether we end up in a regional war, the future seems pretty clear: Seemingly never-ending, grinding wars of attrition between Israel and Iran and its proxies with few if any off-ramps and prospects for enduring de-escalation.This black future, what Naftali Bennett called "Middle Eastern Sparta", what Netanyahu called "life on the sword", what the Samotrichs and their rabbis call "our most beautiful days", what the evangelicals call "the war of Gog and Magog" after which all Jews will see the light And they will become Christians, this future is what Netanyahu and the members of the government of destruction are cooking for us.

16. So whoever believes that this is a "war without choice", whoever thinks that this whole analysis is wrong, is welcome to propose an alternative analysis and argue. Those who understand the seriousness of the situation, are required not to put up with it but to fight against its perpetrators. Netanyahu and the government do not have a mandate to expand the war. point. They have the right to think that this is the necessary move, and that they are the ones suitable to lead it. But they must go to the people and receive their faith in this way of theirs and in them as its leader. According to all the polls, the majority of the people are not with them, but demand the signing of a deal, the end of the war and going to the elections.

17. A competent government would take advantage of the setbacks to turn to the US, Egypt, Qatar and the entire international community and say - we are interested in signing the deal. Now. Help us bring Hamas to the table, help us restore Gaza and build an effective and pragmatic Palestinian government, help us To build a new regional order, based on the Biden plan, we are all in.18. PS - There is much more to be said about the internal arena, about the rampant messianic-political coup, about the wave of the descent from the land of our good sons, our daughters, their sons and daughters, about the nothingness of the "opposition", but Enough said and Enough sad.

The original is here:

 

[Idris2002]

I thought agricola post was pretty reasonable.

How does what Agricola say constitute pushing Israel into a corner?

What I believe agricola was saying is that given Israeli government actions in Gaza Israel is starting to lose international support.

So some more cooler heads might not want to rise to Israel government provocations as internationally Israel is losing the PR battle.

At least that's how I read what agricola is saying.

To add

For example the rulings by ICJ on the occupied territories and some time ago the wall State of Israel built as well as SA bringing case against Israel state for genocide show that non violent use of international law can start to put pressure on state of Israel.

Also the world wide demonstrations in support of Palestinians.

There's been a section of Palestinian civil society calling for international support for years.

And it looks now like it might be bearing fruit.

All to the good I would have thought.

Do you think I was having a go at agricola? Not my intention, I can assure you.

And look at what the person aggie has cut and pasted in that last post is saying - if that's not a case of someone being pushed into the corner, I don't know what that is.

 

[Gramsci]

Do you think I was having a go at agricola? Not my intention, I can assure you.

And look at what the person aggie has cut and pasted in that last post is saying - if that's not a case of someone being pushed into the corner, I don't know what that is.

TBF I'm not awfully keen on cut and pasted twitter posts from people I've no idea of.

I prefer to keep to trusted news sources and reading the history.

I'm not saying your having a go.

What I was taking up is ( and this is not just about your post) that somehow the state of Israel is being backed into a corner.

No its not. Historically as compared to the people whose land they built their state on the Israel is not being backed into a corner. It's not an uncommon view.

From the early days Zionism has got support of major powers. UK and now US

Its imo, given the support of US, not backed into any corner.

So why do you think its backed into a corner?

As realistically its not.

It's destruction of Gaza is going on despite people like me going on demos etc. Its being armed and given diplomatic support by countries such as mine.

So Id like to know what you are basing this on?

The people being backed into a corner are ,given what is and has been happening over the years , the Palestinians.

 

[Gramsci]

Archbishop of Canterbury statement on the ICJ’s Advisory Opinion on Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories | The Archbishop of Canterbury

Read the full statement by the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Most Revd Justin Welby.

www.archbishopofcanterbury.org

I was a bit flabbergasted to read this. In a good way.

Its to the point and comes from someone whose part of the establishment.

I notice the statement has a picture with UN flag on it.

He says he has visited Palestine and met Christians there and its clear these visits have informed him personally of the situation.

It's also good that this makes clear this is not a Muslim issue.

Israel Zionists do not care if one is a Christian Palestinian or Muslim. Israel wants their land.

To add Zionists do not care if one is Palestinian who is not religious. Zionists aspiration is to take all of Palestine. Leaving some Palestinians as second class citizens. As long as they do not threaten the demographics.

The only difference I have with him is that he talks of successive Israeli governments.

I would rather say Zionism itself as a political project is the problem

 

[Gramsci]

Worth posting up the full statement.

Read the full statement by the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Most Revd Justin Welby:

The Advisory Opinion by the International Court of Justice (19 July 2024) makes definitively clear that Israel’s presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territories is unlawful and needs to end as rapidly as possible.

At a time when the world is marked by increasing violations of international law – and commitment to a rules-based system is in question – it is imperative that governments around the world reaffirm their unwavering commitment to all decisions by the International Court of Justice, irrespective of the situation. International law protects our shared humanity, and safeguards human dignity and flourishing. To resist a world where actions such as torture, hostage-taking and indiscriminate violence become the norm, we must apply the law without fear or favour in all circumstances. But for too long it has been applied and upheld in a selective manner that threatens our common peace and security. Now is the time to reverse that deeply damaging trend.

Having visited our Palestinian Christian brothers and sisters many times over recent decades, it is clear to me that the regime imposed by successive Israeli governments in the Occupied Palestinian Territories is one of systemic discrimination. Through annexing Palestinian land for illegal settlements, depriving Palestinians access to their own natural resources, and imposing a system of military rule that denies them safety and justice, the State of Israel has been denying the Palestinian people dignity, freedom and hope. I am particularly aware of how this is impacting Palestinian Christians, threatening their future and viability. It is clear that ending the occupation is a legal and moral necessity.

I pray that all UN member states respond positively to this Advisory Opinion by ensuring their individual and common actions are consistent with it – and pave the way for the realisation of the Palestinian people’s fundamental right to self-determination.

 

[Gramsci]

BTW when he says common actions the ICJ advisory ruling basically means those states signed up to it should take action

So far as I have posted recently Starmer government are still in process of reading the ruling

And cant possibly comment so soon.

Funny how Archbishop has been able to come to a view on it and Starmer hasn't

 

[Gramsci]

Advisory Opinion by the International Court of Justice (19 July 2024) makes definitively clear that Israel’s presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territories is unlawful and needs to end as rapidly as possible

I agree with Archbishop. So why is it so hard for Starmer and Lammy to grasp this?

 

[Gramsci]

Though to be fair to the new Labour government there tentative steps to be more even handed get this from sections of mainstream Jewish community:

Board of Deputies & Jewish Leadership Council Joint Statement on UK Government's Policy Shifts on Israel

Joint statement with The Jewish Leadership Council on the UK Government’s policy shifts on Israel. “Today we learned that our government will not be pursuing the UK’s original objection to the ICC’s jurisdiction over the current Israel-Gaza conflict. This regretful and regressive step not only...

bod.org.uk

Complaining that Starmer government are not undermining ICC and are funding UNWRA. Ie supporting giving aid to Palestinians

Kind of see what pressures this Labour government are under when representative Jewish organisations regard any even handed approach as wrong.

And any approach based on supporting international legal bodies as wrong. And that UK government should be opposing these international bodies UK is signed up to.

Ie opposing a rules based order when it comes to Israel.

What a load of bollox.

 

[Gramsci]

I suppose because I look up stuff about Gaza I've started to get these surreal ads about Israel on Youtube

Truly one that I would take as a spoof is one just now about Israel and Olympics. Featuring Israeli athletes and going on about how they represent all these Israeli values like fairness.

And ending with picture of IDF.

WTF.

I was open mouthed at seeing this.

Kind of hilarious. You couldn't make this up

 

[agricola]

BTW when he says common actions the ICJ advisory ruling basically means those states signed up to it should take action

So far as I have posted recently Starmer government are still in process of reading the ruling

And cant possibly comment so soon.

Funny how Archbishop has been able to come to a view on it and Starmer hasn't

TBF the Archbishop was criticized for months for not coming to a view on it, even though Anglican clergy had been urging him and an Anglican facility (Al-Ahli) had been attacked repeatedly. Several members of the local Anglican community (of whom the most well known is Layan Nasir) are currently being held hostage as well by Israeli forces as well.

I completely understand why the various Christian denominations in the Occupied Territories, with specific reference to Jerusalem, feel the need to avoid strife with the occupier but I feel a genuinely ecumenical statement opposing what is going on - from all of them - is really needed right now.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Me too ..https://corruption-tracker.org/blog/behind-the-smoke-the-unlawful-use-of-white-phosphorus

One of the first places mentioned there, Pine Bluff Arsenal in the US, certainly 'has previous' supplying white phosphorus munitions to Israel.

During Operation Cast Lead in late 2008-early 2009, there were suspicions that the IDF was using white phosphorus in Gaza, which Israel denied.

The horrific burn injuries being sustained by people in Gaza was highly suggestive of the use of white phosphorus.

At the time, a journalist at Al Jazeera English was put in contact with some British arms trade researchers, who'd been reviewing footage and images from the Israeli frontline, big guns, munitions shells, etc., and also images of shrapnel in Gaza, etc. The researchers had managed to track back some serial numbers noted on munitions shells to be US-origin white phosphorus.

After the independent researchers confirmed the use of white phosphorus in Gaza, AJE 'went large' on the story, it topped the bulletins, filled the video wall.

(And the Telegraph in the UK also 'splashed' on it, ie it was the lead story on their front page, presumably they had the same source.)

Details were passed over from AJE in Qatar to their Washington DC broadcast centre, for further research and follow up. And that's how they tracked down the white phosphorus munitions supplied to Israel by the US and used in Gaza, which originated from Pine Bluff Arsenal in Arkansas.





Given Israel's previous protestations about not using white phosphorus and then being caught out doing so, I'd take any similar denials with a pinch of salt. The game plan seems to be to obfuscate, to muddy the waters.

 

[teqniq]

And there it is:

 

[agricola]

And there it is:

View attachment 436336

What is the point of a deep state unless it removes a senior official every now and then?

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

And there it is:

View attachment 436336

Presumably, the end game is to delay and delay and delay until so many Palestinians are dead and so much of the housing and infrastructure is totally destroyed so that it's a matter of 'job done' there's virtually nothing and no one left, and Israel annexes what's left of the Gaza Strip.

 

[teqniq]

Presumably, the end game is to delay and delay and delay until so many Palestinians are dead and so much of the housing and infrastructure is totally destroyed so that it's a matter of 'job done' there's virtually nothing and no one left, and Israel annexes what's left of the Gaza Strip.

I think it is worthwhile noting as well that Netanhayu is very keen to cling onto power, come what may. He know that he is finished when this is over.

 

[Gramsci]

I am trying to get back to reading about British Empire. So after the book on putting down the Arab revolt in 1930s Palestine started this book

A Line in the Sand

‘The very grubby coalface of foreign policy … I found the entire book most horribly addictive’ Independent ‘One of the unexpected responses to read...

www.simonandschuster.co.uk

I think history is important and this book , among other things , looks at how the Imperial power of UK helped to start the problems in middle east.

So far read about WW1 and the aftermath.

At the time middle east was part of Ottoman Empire. Who sided with Germany.

To cut a long story short UK backed both Arabs and Zionists.

Zionists as they wanted UK friendly state in middle east to protect the Suez Canal.

UK knew that colonialism and imperialism were getting a bad press. Especially in US. So instead of direct control support Zionism. Which the Zionists lobbying for a homeland were quite happy with.

Also as US had a big Jewish population idea was that supporting homeland for Jews in Palestine would make them more likely to support US joining WW1.

At same time British were giving signals to Arab leaders that if they supported British against Ottomans then they would get self determination.

USA joined WW1.

President Wilson argued for self determination of the peoples of the middle east now Ottoman Empire had collapsed.

The book argues the European imperial powers argued over control of middle east.

President of USA put forward that commission be sent to middle east to find out what people in middle east wanted.

This put the shits up the British as they had promised Palestine to the Zionists. Book quotes Balfour saying post WW1 self determination of peoples did not apply to Palestine as they had already promised it too the ( European) Jews.

So they got really worried that a independent commission would obviously report back that the Arab population of Palestine area would not agree to this.

Which to cut it short the American led commission said. At that time USA was not 100 percent pro Zionist that it is now.

UK has historic responsibility for:

Stopping the self determination of population of Palestine post WW1

And playing both sides for its own imperial ends. Quite shocking stuff and as part of dealing with its imperial legacy UK should make clear it went against the self determination of the Arab population of Palestine to give homeland for European Jews. Also to support its imperial needs in this part of the world it supported Zionism.. A historic responsibility that is part of why we are where we are now in middle east. UK should never have made the Balfour declaration.

 

[Gramsci]

I found the book hard going to start with but now got into the swing of it agree its addictive at the grubby face of states foreign policy.

Foreign policy at level of powerful states is truly cynical and unsavoury.

 

[Gramsci]

Characters like TE Lawrence as contradictory as they are come across as decent compared to the machinations of the armchair rulers of Imperialism.