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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

This came up in Owen Jones youtube broadcast.
Pro Israel lobby are putting a lot of pressure on the new Labour government over banning arms sales to Israel. Looks like they have succeeded in delaying decision according to Jewish news:

Senior Jewish Labour stakeholders took part in “frank and engaging” discussions with government ministers ahead of the decision to delay any move on suspending arms sales to Israel, Jewish News understands.

During one such discussion, a leading communal figure and key supporter of Prime Minister Keir Starmer, expressed concern about the expected confirmation by foreign secretary David Lammy that the government would go ahead with a decision to halt the sale of all weapons deemed to be used in an offensive fashion in Gaza.
Click to expand...

www.jewishnews.co.uk

Decision to delay Israel arms sale ban followed talks with Jewish Labour stakeholders - Jewish News

'Frank and engaging' talks included a warning of a potential scenario where UK supplied weapons were proven to be used in Gaza in breaches of international law
www.jewishnews.co.uk www.jewishnews.co.uk

And according to JN

But attempts to compare Starmer with Jeremy Corbyn because of the government’s stance on Israel by some have been described as “very,very, wide of the mark.”
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Says something they are even reported as being made.
 
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Meanwhile….

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich implies he believes that blocking humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip is “justified and moral” even if it causes 2 million civilians to die of hunger, adding however that the international community won’t allow this to happen.

“We are bringing in aid because there is no choice,” Smotrich says at a conference in Yad Binyamin hosted by the Israel Hayom outlet. “We can’t, in the current global reality, manage a war. Nobody will let us cause 2 million civilians to die of hunger even though it might be justified and moral until our hostages are returned. Humanitarian in exchange for humanitarian is morally justified, but what can we do? We live today in a certain reality, we need international legitimacy for this war.”
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From here: Times of Israel liveblog
 
AnnO'Neemus said:
Presumably, the end game is to delay and delay and delay until so many Palestinians are dead and so much of the housing and infrastructure is totally destroyed so that it's a matter of 'job done' there's virtually nothing and no one left, and Israel annexes what's left of the Gaza Strip.
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timescale for delay and delay is the end of time/every palestinian is dead or gone, whichever comes first
 
This turned up in my twitter feed

Labour against Anti Semitism have written to Starmer about the disappointment they have now he is in power. According to them he's rewarding terrorism.abroad and hate groups here.

Criticising the policies, the LAAS letter said: “Objections to the ICC case were dropped, funding to UNRWA was resumed (effectively aiding Hamas atrocities) and now you propose an arms embargo while Hezbollah is deliberately killing Israeli children. You have also said that the British Government will formally recognise a Palestinian state, seemingly without putting any conditions in place to ensure its democracy or to safeguard its neighbour
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So according to LAAS who have decided they represent British Jews Starmer and Lammy lack of 100 percent support for state of Israel is giving in to anti semites.

I kind of thought the Israeli lobby thing was a bit overdone. I think I will put Ilan Pappe book on Israeli lobby on my reading list.

.
This group gets airtime on radio for its views





It's the conflation between anti semitism and opposing the State of Israel/ the present government that runs it that gets me.

From what they are saying to Starmer seems to me that want him to go back to his original position of supporting cutting off of water etc

The unpleasant edge to it is that this group seems oblivious to the destruction of Gaza and thousands of dead Palestinians. Plus the ongoing settlement building in West Bank. And no mention of ICJ ruling on state of Israel illegal occupation of West Bank.

TBF outfits like this are about supporting Israel. Not about anti semitism.
 
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Gramsci said:
This turned up in my twitter feed

Labour against Anti Semitism have written to Starmer about the disappointment they have now he is in power. According to them he's rewarding terrorism.abroad and hate groups here.



So according to LAAS who have decided they represent British Jews Starmer and Lammy lack of 100 percent support for state of Israel is giving in to anti semites.

I kind of thought the Israeli lobby thing was a bit overdone. I think I will put Ilan Pappe book on Israeli lobby on my reading list.

.
This group gets airtime on radio for its views





It's the conflation between anti semitism and opposing the State of Israel/ the present government that runs it that gets me.

From what they are saying to Starmer seems to me that want him to go back to his original position of supporting cutting off of water etc

The unpleasant edge to it is that this group seems oblivious to the destruction of Gaza and thousands of dead Palestinians. Plus the ongoing settlement building in West Bank. And no mention of ICJ ruling on state of Israel illegal occupation of West Bank.

TBF outfits like this are about supporting Israel. Not about anti semitism.
Click to expand...

There are even people here who wont seperate the two things. Fuck em
 
Gramsci said:
This turned up in my twitter feed

Labour against Anti Semitism have written to Starmer about the disappointment they have now he is in power. According to them he's rewarding terrorism.abroad and hate groups here.



So according to LAAS who have decided they represent British Jews Starmer and Lammy lack of 100 percent support for state of Israel is giving in to anti semites.

I kind of thought the Israeli lobby thing was a bit overdone. I think I will put Ilan Pappe book on Israeli lobby on my reading list.

.
This group gets airtime on radio for its views





It's the conflation between anti semitism and opposing the State of Israel/ the present government that runs it that gets me.

From what they are saying to Starmer seems to me that want him to go back to his original position of supporting cutting off of water etc

The unpleasant edge to it is that this group seems oblivious to the destruction of Gaza and thousands of dead Palestinians. Plus the ongoing settlement building in West Bank. And no mention of ICJ ruling on state of Israel illegal occupation of West Bank.

TBF outfits like this are about supporting Israel. Not about anti semitism.
Click to expand...


TBF they aren't even about that (supporting Israel), they are about supporting the current Israeli government. In fact its very easy to make an argument that supporting Israel as a country (or even as an idea) requires people to oppose what its current government is doing, given how utterly self-destructive and unlikely to succeed almost all of its acts are. To take one example from today's news, one of Ben Gvir's (temporarily blocked bills) in the Knesset today was to allow 14 year olds to be treated as terrorists; another was to allow judges to block freedom of movement and expression based on secret evidence.

As has oft been said, this is a fascist government and no good will ever come of it for anyone.
 
JC is running this as a headline:
www.thejc.com

Arms export licences to Israel suspended by UK government

Civil servants are understood to have stopped giving permission for weapons to be sold to the Jewish state
www.thejc.com www.thejc.com

But it seems a bit misleading (sadly), the actual detail in the story is more like:
The British government has already begun to suspend arms export licences to Israel while ministers carry out a policy review, evidence seen by the JC confirms.


While Foreign Secretary David Lammy is yet to make a final decision on whether to halt weapons sales to the Jewish state, civil servants have already stopped granting permits.


One individual involved in arms exports to Israel, who was seeking permission, received a notice in response that stated: “suspended pending policy review”.



Such a move would put Jerusalem alongside North Korea and Iran.


Asked to confirm whether the government had suspended all arms export licences for Israel, a Department for Business and Trade spokesperson said: "It is vital that we uphold both our domestic and international legal obligations when it comes to arms exports.


"We are reviewing the advice available and will come to a considered decision."


Between October 7 and the end of May of this year, over 100 arms export licences to Israel were issued, according to government figures.


The data, released in June before the general election, revealed that 37 of those were for military purposes, while 63 were not.


At that point, no arms export licences had been rejected or revoked during Israel’s war in Gaza.


In June, however, Reuters reported that the value of permits for the sale of arms to Israel had dropped by 95 per cent to a 13-year low.


Following a recent International Court of Justice ruling that found Israel’s settlement programme to be illegal under international law, the British government is facing increasing pressure to halt arms licences.


If government lawyers conclude that Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza, export licences would have to be suspended to avoid the risk of the UK aiding and abetting breaches of international law.


In December, then Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch decided not to halt export licences to Israel on the grounds that there was not at present a clear risk that items exported to the IDF “might be used to commit or facilitate a serious violation of international humanitarian law”.


The government is expected to make a final announcement later this summer on whether they will officially halt sales.


Lammy said last month that he had commissioned new legal advice into Israel's compliance with international law on his first day in office.


He told Parliament: "This is an ongoing process. I pledge to update the house as soon as I can on this very, very serious matter.”


Labour MP Afzal Khan previously told the news website Middle East Eye that he was "confident" the British government will restrict arms sales to Israel.


"It's been done before," he said. "We're only three weeks into the Labour government and have already seen lots of positive developments which we had never seen under the Conservatives. We need to keep it up and respect international law."
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And this site reckons that the government are saying there's been no change in approach yet:
www.aa.com.tr

'No change' in arms export licenses approach to Israel: UK government

Human rights groups, independent institutions in UK criticize government for being 'complicit in Israel's war crimes,' not stopping arms sales to Israel - Anadolu Ajansı
www.aa.com.tr www.aa.com.tr
 
Knotted said:
This is probably not a surprise to anyone but it looks like they set up torture camps in the immediate aftermath of 7th October.

www.aljazeera.com

Israel set up facilities dedicated to torturing Palestinians: Rights group

Testimonies from 55 ex-detainees reveal more than a dozen Israeli prison camps are dedicated to abuse, B’Tselem reports.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com
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tbh torture camps don't set themselves up overnight, imo either the staff were told to take the gloves off as it were or this sort of thing was already planned for
 
Knotted said:
This is probably not a surprise to anyone but it looks like they set up torture camps in the immediate aftermath of 7th October.

www.aljazeera.com

Israel set up facilities dedicated to torturing Palestinians: Rights group

Testimonies from 55 ex-detainees reveal more than a dozen Israeli prison camps are dedicated to abuse, B’Tselem reports.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com
Click to expand...

Full report here. Not had chance to read it yet


Also remember it was one of Cameron's red lines to Israeli government that they allow Red Cross to visit prisoners. Or arms would be banned.

www.israelnationalnews.com

Britain's ultimatum: Israel must allow Red Cross visits to terrorists

If the demand is not met, Britain will end arms sales to Israel and support a similar embargo for all of Europe.
www.israelnationalnews.com www.israelnationalnews.com

As far as I can see Israel still is not letting Red Cross have access.

Another red line made and forgotten.
 
Gramsci said:
Full report here. Not had chance to read it yet


Also remember it was one of Cameron's red lines to Israeli government that they allow Red Cross to visit prisoners. Or arms would be banned.

www.israelnationalnews.com

Britain's ultimatum: Israel must allow Red Cross visits to terrorists

If the demand is not met, Britain will end arms sales to Israel and support a similar embargo for all of Europe.
www.israelnationalnews.com www.israelnationalnews.com

As far as I can see Israel still is not letting Red Cross have access.

Another red line made and forgotten.
Click to expand...
Shammer has a record of defending human rights we're told but it seems he feels some humans have more rights than others
 
From the Btselem report. Worth reading the last two pages of the summary as they argue ( correctly imo) that the Israeli prison system for Palestinians didn't start on October 7th. It's been a feature of how Israeli state controls the Palestinian population and keeps them down,

Page 11. Tried to cut and paste it and it didn't work.

So it's got worse since October 7th but the rationale behind it has been there for decades.

Emergency regulations that are used btw are hangover from when Britain ran the mandate.
 

Attachments

  • 202408_welcome_to_hell_summary_eng.pdf
    177.5 KB · Views: 2
agricola said:
TBF they aren't even about that (supporting Israel), they are about supporting the current Israeli government. In fact its very easy to make an argument that supporting Israel as a country (or even as an idea) requires people to oppose what its current government is doing, given how utterly self-destructive and unlikely to succeed almost all of its acts are. To take one example from today's news, one of Ben Gvir's (temporarily blocked bills) in the Knesset today was to allow 14 year olds to be treated as terrorists; another was to allow judges to block freedom of movement and expression based on secret evidence.

As has oft been said, this is a fascist government and no good will ever come of it for anyone.
Click to expand...

You might think that. However Israel is a democracy. Not a fascist state.

Some of those elected and in government are to the right of Netanyahu.

You might think that Israelis should oppose this government. But Israelis might think different.

Last time Iooked at polls there is majority support for Israel state actions in Gaza.

Netanyahu might be hated. For various reasons that have nothing to do with Hamas attack. Also because on his watch , in eyes of Israelis, a terrorist group managed to overcome Israel defences. It's not about Palestinians. It's about the Israeli electorate seeing that its government did not do its job properly.


www.pewresearch.org

Israeli Views of the Israel-Hamas War

Israelis are divided over the military response in Gaza, with Arabs much more likely than Jews to say it’s gone too far. Arabs’ and Jews’ views of many aspects of the war differ.
www.pewresearch.org www.pewresearch.org

I can see what you are getting at. Its that on the ground in Israel that argument might not get much traction.

And to go back to what is happening here in UK. My arguement is that Starmer is being lobbied hard to not stop arms. By Jewish groups like LAAS who regard any sanctions against Israel as aiding growth of anti semitism in UK.
 
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Basically I would like Starmer and Lammy to live up to the promise they made about following International law and stand up to groups like LAAS.

The ICJ has ruled on the OPT and I would like to know what this government is going to do to support the judgement.

To add also the Board of Deputies and the Jewish Leadership Council who have made the same comments as LAAS

bod.org.uk

Board of Deputies & Jewish Leadership Council Joint Statement on UK Government's Policy Shifts on Israel

Joint statement with The Jewish Leadership Council on the UK Government’s policy shifts on Israel. “Today we learned that our government will not be pursuing the UK’s original objection to the ICC’s jurisdiction over the current Israel-Gaza conflict. This regretful and regressive step not only...
bod.org.uk bod.org.uk

And


Board of Deputies President Phil Rosenberg visited 10 Downing Street this week, where he discussed both key opportunities and pressing concerns that the Board of Deputies has been raising on behalf of the community. While some challenges remain on the horizon, there was good progress on a number of fronts.
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Following this engagement, the Government this week delayed its announcement on the sale of arms to Israel. Commenting on the week’s engagement, Phil said, “While some challenges remain on the horizon, there was good progress on a number of fronts
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Good progress being delaying a decision to stop arms sales to Israel. Nice

Imo ending arms sales is something that should be considered completely reasonable and in line with other mainstream countries.

I support this government dropping opposition to ICC and support this government restarting funding to UNWRA.

All of which LAAS/ BDBJ and JLC oppose.
 
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Gramsci said:
I am trying to get back to reading about British Empire. So after the book on putting down the Arab revolt in 1930s Palestine started this book

www.simonandschuster.co.uk

A Line in the Sand

‘The very grubby coalface of foreign policy … I found the entire book most horribly addictive’ Independent ‘One of the unexpected responses to read...
www.simonandschuster.co.uk www.simonandschuster.co.uk

I think history is important and this book , among other things , looks at how the Imperial power of UK helped to start the problems in middle east.

So far read about WW1 and the aftermath.

At the time middle east was part of Ottoman Empire. Who sided with Germany.

To cut a long story short UK backed both Arabs and Zionists.

Zionists as they wanted UK friendly state in middle east to protect the Suez Canal.

UK knew that colonialism and imperialism were getting a bad press. Especially in US. So instead of direct control support Zionism. Which the Zionists lobbying for a homeland were quite happy with.

Also as US had a big Jewish population idea was that supporting homeland for Jews in Palestine would make them more likely to support US joining WW1.

At same time British were giving signals to Arab leaders that if they supported British against Ottomans then they would get self determination.

USA joined WW1.

President Wilson argued for self determination of the peoples of the middle east now Ottoman Empire had collapsed.

The book argues the European imperial powers argued over control of middle east.

President of USA put forward that commission be sent to middle east to find out what people in middle east wanted.

This put the shits up the British as they had promised Palestine to the Zionists. Book quotes Balfour saying post WW1 self determination of peoples did not apply to Palestine as they had already promised it too the ( European) Jews.

So they got really worried that a independent commission would obviously report back that the Arab population of Palestine area would not agree to this.

Which to cut it short the American led commission said. At that time USA was not 100 percent pro Zionist that it is now.

UK has historic responsibility for:

Stopping the self determination of population of Palestine post WW1

And playing both sides for its own imperial ends. Quite shocking stuff and as part of dealing with its imperial legacy UK should make clear it went against the self determination of the Arab population of Palestine to give homeland for European Jews. Also to support its imperial needs in this part of the world it supported Zionism.. A historic responsibility that is part of why we
Click to expand...
Good book. I have his follow up Lords of the Desert in the to read pile as well.
 
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Gramsci said:
Basically I would like Starmer and Lammy to live up to the promise they made about following International law and stand up to groups like LAAS.

The ICJ has ruled on the OPT and I would like to know what this government is going to do to support the judgement.

To add also the Board of Deputies and the Jewish Leadership Council who have made the same comments as LAAS

bod.org.uk

Board of Deputies & Jewish Leadership Council Joint Statement on UK Government's Policy Shifts on Israel

Joint statement with The Jewish Leadership Council on the UK Government’s policy shifts on Israel. “Today we learned that our government will not be pursuing the UK’s original objection to the ICC’s jurisdiction over the current Israel-Gaza conflict. This regretful and regressive step not only...
bod.org.uk bod.org.uk

And





Good progress being delaying a decision to stop arms sales to Israel. Nice

Imo ending arms sales is something that should be considered completely reasonable and in line with other mainstream countries.

I support this government dropping opposition to ICC and support this government restarting funding to UNWRA.

All of which LAAS/ BDBJ and JLC oppose.
Click to expand...
I am pretty much 100% with you on this and the preceeding post. Will they just stop prevarticating? I think not, but I hope so. with this in mind, wrt to the ICC and the potential arrest warrants, there's this on and from Twitter:

threadreaderapp.com

Thread by @Frances_Coppola on Thread Reader App

@Frances_Coppola: I read their amicus brief and can summarise it thus: "We talked to our friends in the IDF and they told us the charges were unfounded". The same group produced a report on the 2014...…
threadreaderapp.com threadreaderapp.com

Who the fuck are these people? Some ex-miltary types submitting an amicus brief to the ICC? How does that work? Can anybody tell me? I thought that the only bodies that could do this are signatories to the ICC, namely actual states.

So here we are random ex-military types running interference for the Israeli state which they seem to have a track record of doing, meanwhile our government here in the UK fannies around as well because it's obvious they are under pressure. Fucking sickening.

Here is the .pdf of the amicus brief submitted by these people:

 
teqniq said:
Good:

Widespread boycotts in Muslim countries hammer western brands

View attachment 436803
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Reading this and sounds like these are bottom up spontaneous boycotts by ordinary people in middle east

I remember years back a few people I knew in London from middle east. Here learning English.

Both secular. No time for Islamic parties in middle east.

When it came to Palestinians they regarded them as their brothers and sisters who were being oppressed by the Zionists.

The Arab street as its called has always opposed Zionism. Whatever their background. Religious / Secular whatever class.

Their rulers have to respond to this bottom up opinion. Even if they would rather pursue so called normalisation.

Things like high diplomacy "normalisation" of Arab states and Israel mean nothing to the average person in middle east who want their fellow Arabs in Palestine free from Zionism
 
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Watched this and it's good. Benny Morris I felt could have been allowed more to explain his ideas more. The interviewer was a bit confrontational I felt.

Best watched in conjunction with this interview of Benny Morris. More sympathetic.



He is one of the New Historians who revised Israel history. Unlike others like Ilan Pappe he has not tuned against Zionism.

He doesn't deny the events of 48. However he disagrees with Pappe on the timeline. Pappe argues that the ethnic cleansing started before any Arab attack.

His basic position is Liberal Zionist. He has no time for Netanyahu or the right. He says Israel has moved to the right.

He says that Palestinians have never wanted peace. Even during the mandate period. This is a theme for him. And imo what sets him apart from other historians like Pappe and Rashid Khalidi in particular.

From his point of view as Israeli some kind of peace with Palestinians having self government in some areas is his Liberal Zionist position. But a Jewish state must remain.

I'm not clear what he thinks of settlement building on West Bank. From what he was saying Israel proper is within the pre 67 borders. Wish he was asked more on that.

He says Israel is still a democracy unlike surrounding Arab regimes. That Palestine Israelis have more rights than they would in those countries.
.
He doesn't think present government is interested in any peace deal.

The Al Jazeera programme had a panel . One Palestinian Israeli Diana Buttu, Daniel Levy and an Israeli academic.

It all got heated in an interesting way. Morris can hold his own.

Some heated exchanges between him and Buttu She calling him racist. Well he was making some generalisations about Arabs that showed some prejudice. Could not help feeling his view is that this Jewish state was fought for in a sea of hostile people who are Arabs. And that's coloured his views.

At one point he called Levy ( who is Jewish) a Palestinian propagandist. Levy looked upset after that. I didn't think Levy deserved that. Showed to me the limits of liberal Zionism.

On the present war in Gaza. He supports it. Says civilian deaths are inevitable as Hamas uses civilians as human shields That Hamas want to kill Jews and destroy Israel so must be destroyed by Israel. He does not deny war crimes by IDF have probably happened. He goes that this is war and it's a few rotten apples in the barrel doing this. Ie it's not systemic. He says IDF have lawyers to advice on what bombing is ok.

Not sure if all liberal Zionists would support the war to that extent.

It's one of the more interesting things I've seen. With both sides in the same room. And it is both sides as no meeting of minds here A view from those in Israel who are secular old school Zionists who aren't against some kind of peace deal.

Seems to me Benny Morris view is that Palestinians should get some rights / land but given that Palestinians never wanted peace it can only be given by Israel in a position of strength. He argued that Israel should work more with US ( Biden I assume) He saw a position for other Arab countries in running Gaza in future.

Given the right is in power in Israel he is however pessimistic.

I didn't agree with a lot he said but admire him for going into the lions den so to speak of Al Jazeera. Some of his work is important revision of the previous idealised view of Israeli history. Ive only read articles by him. Not fully books.
 
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