Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Gramsci]

Also reminded Ilan Pappe most well known book on 48 compares what happened in 48 to the ethnic cleansing in ex Yugoslavia in 90s. That with the development of international law what happened in 48 would be now considered a crime.

International law move on and develops over time.

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine | Oneworld

Renowned Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe’s groundbreaking work on the formation of the State of Israel. ‘Along with the late Edward Said, Ilan Pappe is the most eloquent writer of Palestinian history.’ NEW STATESMAN Between 1947 and 1949, over 400 Palestinian villages were deliberately...

oneworld-publications.com

What is happening now in Gaza is quite astounding effort by the hard right in government in Israel to outdo what there Zionist predecessors did in 48.

Theres no need to make crass comparisons to the Nazis.

Just read the history and comparisons can be made in different ways

 

[barlimo]

The spotlight being on Gaza doesn't make mean that the IDF are committing "the worst civillian massacre in years" It does mean that it is a well publicised one

Well an estimated 40,000 dead Palestinians is really bad isn't it? And yes never before has this scale of inhumanity been publicly televised.

 

[tim]

I'm none the wiser.

Wisdom is innate. it isn't something I am capable of endowing you with over WiFi.

 

[Gramsci]

Wisdom is innate. it isn't something I am capable of endowing you with over WiFi.

If you've something to say say it directly.

 

[tim]

Well an estimated 40,000 dead Palestinians is really bad isn't it? And yes never before has this scale of inhumanity been publicly televised.

And nobody even knows how many have been murdered in Sudan.

Sudan violence: The horrifying statistics behind the brutal conflict - and still the death toll is unknown

As the ticker of horrifying statistics from Sudan steadily updates, there is one measure of brutality that remains as elusive as the loss it quantifies - the death toll.

www.google.com

More than 300,00 mudered in Syria.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9381/

And more being killed and tortured every month

Syria: Mass death, torture and other violations against people detained in aftermath of Islamic State defeat – new report

People detained following the territorial defeat of the Islamic State (IS) armed group are facing systematic violations and dying in large numbers due to inhumane conditions in north-east Syria, Amnesty International said in a new report. Aftermath: Injustice, Torture and Death in Detention in...

www.amnesty.org

30,000 a year murdered in Mexico

civillian deaths Mexico - Google Search

 

[Gramsci]

This is the whataboutery argument. Are there going to be more pages of this?

 

[tim]

This is the whataboutery argument. Are there going to be more pages of this?

Who can tell?

 

[Gramsci]

Who can tell?

Be nice to know so I can skip them.

 

[Pickman's model]

"I wasn't referring to Barlimo's past history or posts, just this particular one" I said. So, my clarification did expressly that.

Past history or posts, yes, but not beliefs. So your clarification expressly did not do that.

 

[Rimbaud]

And nobody even knows how many have been murdered in Sudan.

Sudan violence: The horrifying statistics behind the brutal conflict - and still the death toll is unknown

As the ticker of horrifying statistics from Sudan steadily updates, there is one measure of brutality that remains as elusive as the loss it quantifies - the death toll.

www.google.com

More than 300,00 mudered in Syria.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9381/

And more being killed and tortured every month

Syria: Mass death, torture and other violations against people detained in aftermath of Islamic State defeat – new report

People detained following the territorial defeat of the Islamic State (IS) armed group are facing systematic violations and dying in large numbers due to inhumane conditions in north-east Syria, Amnesty International said in a new report. Aftermath: Injustice, Torture and Death in Detention in...

www.amnesty.org

30,000 a year murdered in Mexico

civillian deaths Mexico - Google Search

30,000 Palestinians killed really understates the scale of what is happened in Gaza because it is only including those killed directly by bombs and guns, and not including those who have died as an intended consequence of the constant displacement and evacuations combined with targeting of medical facilities and reservoirs as well as the blockade on food supplies and medical equipment. The actual death toll including deaths as a result of exposure, famine, disease, inadequate water and lack of medical facilities is likely closer to 200,000 and by the time this ends will certainly be higher than that.

I think it is disingenuous to draw a contrast with 30,000 killed in Mexican drug wars. The entire population of Gaza is displaced, it is not a remotely comparable situation to Mexico.

 

[tim]

30,000 Palestinians killed really understates the scale of what is happened in Gaza because it is only including those killed directly by bombs and guns, and not including those who have died as an intended consequence of the constant displacement and evacuations combined with targeting of medical facilities and reservoirs as well as the blockade on food supplies and medical equipment. The actual death toll including deaths as a result of exposure, famine, disease, inadequate water and lack of medical facilities is likely closer to 200,000 and by the time this ends will certainly be higher than that.

I think it is disingenuous to draw a contrast with 30,000 killed in Mexican drug wars. The entire population of Gaza is displaced, it is not a remotely comparable situation to Mexico.

What's happening in Gaza including the ethnic/confessional cleansing is comparable to what is happening in Sudan and has happened in Syria. Syria is possibly the closer parallel, because of the similarity of the postcolonial regime that was put in place.


As to Mexico, I'm always shocked about how little attention the violence there garners when compared with that in the Middle East.

 

[Pickman's model]

What's happening in Gaza including the ethnic/confessional cleansing is comparable to what is happening in Sudan and has happened in Syria. Syria is possibly the closer parallel, because of the similarity of the postcolonial regime that was put in place.


As to Mexico, I'm always shocked about how little attention the violence there garners when compared with that in the Middle East.

This is not a thread about Mexico.

 

[mojo pixy]

Do one.

You don't really understand how this works, do you?

 

[Johnny Vodka]

And nobody even knows how many have been murdered in Sudan.

Sudan violence: The horrifying statistics behind the brutal conflict - and still the death toll is unknown

As the ticker of horrifying statistics from Sudan steadily updates, there is one measure of brutality that remains as elusive as the loss it quantifies - the death toll.

www.google.com

More than 300,00 mudered in Syria.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9381/

And more being killed and tortured every month

Syria: Mass death, torture and other violations against people detained in aftermath of Islamic State defeat – new report

People detained following the territorial defeat of the Islamic State (IS) armed group are facing systematic violations and dying in large numbers due to inhumane conditions in north-east Syria, Amnesty International said in a new report. Aftermath: Injustice, Torture and Death in Detention in...

www.amnesty.org

30,000 a year murdered in Mexico

civillian deaths Mexico - Google Search

All different and horrific situations with their own talking points. Does the UK supply any of those groups with weapons though?

 

[tim]

All different and horrific situations with their own talking points. Does the UK supply any of those groups with weapons though?

Limited supply to Sudan, and a huge supply to the Saudis and Emiratis who have murdered tens of thousands of civillian deaths in Yemen.

CAAT - The war on Yemen’s civilians

The war in Yemen has killed an estimated 377,000 people through direct and indirect causes. Over 150,000, including tens of thousands of civilians, have been killed in fighting, including the Saudi-led bombing campaign, while many more have died of hunger and disease in the humanitarian crisis...

caat.org.uk

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Limited supply to Sudan, and a huge supply to the Saudis and Emiratis who have murdered tens of thousands of civillian deaths in Yemen.

CAAT - The war on Yemen’s civilians

The war in Yemen has killed an estimated 377,000 people through direct and indirect causes. Over 150,000, including tens of thousands of civilians, have been killed in fighting, including the Saudi-led bombing campaign, while many more have died of hunger and disease in the humanitarian crisis...

caat.org.uk

I think most people on here against selling arms to Israel would also be against selling arms to Saudi Arabia. That's been well publicised & covered in the past.

 

[teqniq]

More on the destruction of the reservoir and more background:

The IDF Just Destroyed a Key Rafah Water Facility Rachel Corrie Spent Her Last Month of Life Defending

“I was shocked when I saw the video. It’s not just that they targeted this water facility; it’s the fact that they planted explosives, celebrated the act on Instagram.... It's deeply cruel."

www.dropsitenews.com

 

[CNT36]

This is the whataboutery argument. Are there going to be more pages of this?

Seems fair enough when barlimo is defending his use of an antisemitic trope like this

I said nothing of the sort! However answer this: Is truth anti-semitic? And aren't the IDF slowly carrying out the worst civilian massacre in years.

 

[barlimo]

Seems fair enough when barlimo is defending his use of an antisemitic trope like this

Now it's anti-semitic to criticize the IDF!

This the problem: a proper discussion about the Israeli actions before or during this war cannot be had because of the usual charge of anti-Semitism.

 

[Gramsci]

Seems fair enough when barlimo is defending his use of an antisemitic trope like this

Actually Tim was having a go at me in a not straightforward way.

So no its not fair enough.

And thanks but Id rather not be included in posts which start to make me seem part of the problem.

I've already done a recent post which says there are right and wrong ways to criticise Israel. Based on its history.

I've tried over this thread to read up on the subject and make best effort to distinguish between:

IDF/ present Israeli government/ Israel as a state and all Israelis as a whole

Jews as a whole and Zionism as a specific political project. To be clear I'm anti Zionist.

As I've done this all the only way that I can be got at is the whataboutery line of attack.

 

[Pickman's model]

Now it's anti-semitic to criticize the IDF!

This the problem: a proper discussion about the Israeli actions before or during this war cannot be had because of the usual charge of anti-Semitism.

Er that's utter bollocks.

 

[Gramsci]

TBF I hold my head in my hands when I see the Israel equals Nazi line

Its quite common and TBF sometimes supporters of Palestinians and supporters of Israel outside Israel are as bad as each other.

On one hand Israel is like Nazi on other its all about Hamas/ Islam and sliding into tropes about backwards Muslims.

IMO Zionism is a , as historian Tony Judt argued, a product of 19c Nationalism. With all its plus points and minus points.

Zionist built a democratic state where the indigenous people were treated as a problem to be expelled or managed.

As Tony Judt argued the problem is that it is past its sell by date.

This kind of nationalism which is now even more entrenched in Israeli state is an anachronism in the modern age.

Israel is such a contradiction. A democratic state that still holds onto 19c views of nationalism. Plus still trying to colonise its mini Empire.

Why the British Jewish historian said he moved to believing in One State solution. For which like other Jews who say the same( Ilan Pappe ) he got a lot of flack.

 

[barlimo]

Er that's utter bollocks

Not really.

 

[two sheds]

but the debate here is whether calling Israel Nazis is antisemitic, which is somewhat different

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Be nice to know so I can skip them.

Just put the idiot on ignore: I do

 

[barlimo]

but the debate here is whether calling Israel Nazis is antisemitic, which is somewhat different

Interesting stuff:

Israel’s ‘nation-state law’ parallels the Nazi Nuremberg Laws

Israel’s new ‘nation-state’ law follows in the footsteps of Jim Crow, the Indian Removal Act and the Nuremberg Laws.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[agricola]

Honestly if you can't describe what has been going on in Palestine for the past hundred plus years without using the words of bad things from other parts of the world then what is the point.

 

[Gramsci]

but the debate here is whether calling Israel Nazis is antisemitic, which is somewhat different

It should be. But as post directed at me shows they get put together. Even if unintentionally

 

[CNT36]

Now it's anti-semitic to criticize the IDF!

This the problem: a proper discussion about the Israeli actions before or during this war cannot be had because of the usual charge of anti-Semitism.

Who said that? Who has accused anyone here of antisemitism just for criticising the IDF. It would be a weird line for those of us who are critical of the IDF to take.

 

[Gramsci]

Just been watching Novara media coverage of the Tommy Robinson march in London. NM reporter did good job letting people talk.

One thing that was noticeable that is in certain quarters on far right in this country Islam as replaced the Jews as this force that is undermining society. Remarkable similar to classic anti semitism. But its modern version is directed at Muslims.

Some on march carried Israeli flags as sign of support. Israeli in their view is fighting Islam.

Makes me think that instead of going on about specific types of racism the thinking behind them is the same whether its directed at Jews or Muslims. Its that the target changes depending on he circumstances.

Both Islamophobia and anti semitism are linked in a world view that sees that these as intrusions into society undermining it from within.