TopCat
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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
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tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Civilian deaths are also asymmetrical. It's Palestinian civilians who die. Or, in the case of the recent attack on the Golan Druze.
La Repubblica Sociale Italiana if you prefer. For me the state of Israel has to go, no place for an apartheid ethnically supremacist state in the modern world.Any other comparisons you'd like to try, or is 'nazi germany' the best one you can think of?
If you don't like that you are more than welcome to contact the mods and ask for my posts to be removed or for me to banned.
Frankly I don't give a shit.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
No, I can tell, your lack of shit giving shines right through.
Post what you want from your impenetrable virtue signal box, obviously, its what we frequently do here after all. You do you etc as they say. I'm just dismayed that after 454 pages of mainly fairly insightful and incisive posts you chose to leap back on nazi germany!!11! My problem with that comparison isn't that it suggests a certain mindset vis-à-vis this Jewish state but more that it's just historically illiterate. Not every ghastly, murderous state can or should be compared with Germany 1933-45. Why not compare with Mormons in Utah or Romans in Gaul or Muslims in India or British in Australia or any number of other genocidal, racist colonisations? Are they any more, or less accurate or revealing? Not at all. And yet, nazis eh? Well well well.
Anyway, as you were
Clearly we both have different 'allegiances' here. Mine are with the 16,000 dead Palestinian children murdered by the Israeli Defence Force.No, I can tell, your lack of shit giving shines right through.
Post what you want from your impenetrable virtue signal box, obviously, its what we frequently do here after all. You do you etc as they say. I'm just dismayed that after 454 pages of mainly fairly insightful and incisive posts you chose to leap back on nazi germany!!11! My problem with that comparison isn't that it suggests a certain mindset vis-à-vis this Jewish state but more that it's just historically illiterate. Not every ghastly, murderous state can or should be compared with Germany 1933-45. Why not compare with Mormons in Utah or Romans in Gaul or Muslims in India or British in Australia or any number of other genocidal, racist colonisations? Are they any more, or less accurate or revealing? Not at all. And yet, nazis eh? Well well well.
Anyway, as you were
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
Yes, that's definitely what this is all about Picking a Side. Great stuff.
Plus, read the thread. You might learn something - not only about the situation and history behind it, but even about my 'allegiance' as you put it. If you even care about that beyond digging trenches between you and whoever you think you should hate.
What the fuck is wrong with you? Back off, cunt.
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
Or what?
What does 'back off' mean in an Internet forum? Have I threatened you? No. You want me to stop posting replies? That'll happen when I'm ready to stop.
You did that thing, comparing israel to nazi germany. It's a well-known antisemitic trope. I'm calling you out on that.
Hiding antisemitism behind virtue signalling doesn't change what it is. Plenty of people on this thread have articulated really clear and specific criticism of zionism as a tool of racist oppression, the behaviour past and present of settlers and the IDF, of Israel as a cruel and unjust endeavour and all-round bad idea, without tantrums and posting zomg nazi germany. Give it a try maybe. Or don't, but bear in mind that doing so says more about you than about zionism.
barlimo
Well-Known Member
No, I can tell, your lack of shit giving shines right through.
Post what you want from your impenetrable virtue signal box, obviously, its what we frequently do here after all. You do you etc as they say. I'm just dismayed that after 454 pages of mainly fairly insightful and incisive posts you chose to leap back on nazi germany!!11! My problem with that comparison isn't that it suggests a certain mindset vis-à-vis this Jewish state but more that it's just historically illiterate. Not every ghastly, murderous state can or should be compared with Germany 1933-45. Why not compare with Mormons in Utah or Romans in Gaul or Muslims in India or British in Australia or any number of other genocidal, racist colonisations? Are they any more, or less accurate or revealing? Not at all. And yet, nazis eh? Well well well.
Anyway, as you were
True but in this case the once oppressed are the oppressor's and their methods would have done credit to the old Nazi regime.No, I can tell, your lack of shit giving shines right through.
Post what you want from your impenetrable virtue signal box, obviously, its what we frequently do here after all. You do you etc as they say. I'm just dismayed that after 454 pages of mainly fairly insightful and incisive posts you chose to leap back on nazi germany!!11! My problem with that comparison isn't that it suggests a certain mindset vis-à-vis this Jewish state but more that it's just historically illiterate. Not every ghastly, murderous state can or should be compared with Germany 1933-45. Why not compare with Mormons in Utah or Romans in Gaul or Muslims in India or British in Australia or any number of other genocidal, racist colonisations? Are they any more, or less accurate or revealing? Not at all. And yet, nazis eh? Well well well.
Anyway, as you were
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
I don't want to pile on here, but comparisons with Nazi Germany play into antisemitic tropes and going down that route makes it more than being about criticism of Israel.
And why, whenever it's pointed out to someone that they're slipping into antisemitism, do they resort to suggesting that whoever dared pull them on it doesn't care about Palestinians, even when it's someone who's repeatedly posted thoughtful stuff that says otherwise? It's ok to make mistakes but ffs you don't need to make shit up about people who politely mention it to you.
And why, whenever it's pointed out to someone that they're slipping into antisemitism, do they resort to suggesting that whoever dared pull them on it doesn't care about Palestinians, even when it's someone who's repeatedly posted thoughtful stuff that says otherwise? It's ok to make mistakes but ffs you don't need to make shit up about people who politely mention it to you.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
klang
klang
not only this, but it also makes history very foggy.
"I wasn't referring to Barlimo's past history or posts, just this particular one" I said. So, my clarification did expressly that.
klang
klang
what 'truth' would this be?
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Yes, the worst civillian massacres years apart from those currently going on or that have recently happened in Sudan, Syria, Congo, Ukraine, Mexico, Myanmar and various other places. And whilst in general terms they're less competent murderers of civilians than the IDF, Hamas proved on the 7th of October than they're equally capable of murderous slaughter of innocent people when they get the opportunity, and don't let's forget the comrades in Hezbollah and their murder of Druze kids playing football in the occupied Gokan Heights a couple of days ago.
Remember too the gallant British chaps in the SAS who until fairly recently were breaking into Afghan homes and murdering the male residents to boost their kill statistics.
If you think that only Jews are capable of mass murder, you're an antisemitic or very stupid, and quite possibly both.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Yes. It's what I was going on about in the post previous to the one you quote.
Actions of IDF are not proportionate. The largest amount of civilian deaths in present phase of the conflict are Palestinian. These deaths are not accidental collateral damage they are inevitable consequences of IDF tactics.
And I say tactics as I don't think IDF are out of control.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
They're murders just like the attack on the Golan Heights was murder. Murder is never proportionate.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
They haven't become shameless, they have always been shameless, as have Hamas.
‘Like judgment day’: evacuees tell of fleeing Israel’s assault on Khan Younis
Given barely any warning, many people fled with nothing as bombs fell and bullets flew around themamp.theguardian.com
Seems to me that IDF are becoming shameless about their actions now.
It's the I Don't give a Fuck army.
With no real push back from countries like US the idea that this is a war fought in accordance with international law is frankly obscene.
People were getting messages on mobiles to move whilst attack was starting. No time to go and no where for them to go.
After months this is the new normal.
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
The only thing israel has been 'better at' than the third reich, to momentarily consider your upside-down projection reality where the old nazis get credit for things, is promoting itself as a victimised entity. And the attitude expressed above that 'shut it down like nazi germany / israel has no future' apart from being very silly, totally plays in to that valuable narrative of victimhood.
Then, consider the other quite murderous and racist colonial enterprises I listed earlier, are any of them now gone? Vanished into the wrong side of history? Not in the slightest, they all thrive. My point? There is a future, must be a future, the question is what kind of future?
I actually have plenty of thoughts on that but atm I want the killing to stop, and I want to see netanyahu - not only but also - in the dock at the ICC. I want to see israel send him there, willingly and officially, as their way of saying enough's enough. Then, there could be a future. Till then, it's obviously war isn't it.
For lo, the voice did say, if truth hath become racist then racism must for balance become unto truth.
No, I don't know what you mean either so maybe unpack that a bit?
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
The point I was making is that murder can never be "proportionate", whoever commits it.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Watched this a few days ago.
Roundtable on Ilan Pappe ( Israeli Jewish historian know academic in this country) with two other academics of Palestinian origin
Had a flick through it in bookshop and It looks more interesting than I thought it would.
Its also a history of Zionism itself. He look at origins in Christian thought in 19c and how this aligned with British imperial needs. I think part of it is that he's saying that issues around Zionism can be seen in its past history.
Another thing that comes across is that Israel was not always a pariah state. Sections of left supported Israel - the Labour Zionist version.
The other speakers bring up that this lobbying was all done over the heads of the actual people who lived there. The Arab people including the longstanding Jewish community in middle east
That it was a political project of European Jews.
Second part is questions from the audience. One brought up the Two State solution.
None of panel support two state solution.
Pappe wants to see end of Zionism. People living in Palestine together. Whatever their background. As equals
He is optimistic that Zionism is approaching its end. But this also means dangers.
All the academics saw the rise of a new global movement as a sign of hope.
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tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
The spotlight being on Gaza doesn't make mean that the IDF are committing "the worst civillian massacre in years" It does mean that it is a well publicised one
Do one.
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