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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

Now Starmer is PM he is going to have to say something. As UK has links with Israel state carrying over from last government. So he is going to have to say what this government view is

Previously he has said that he would support international bodies like ICC and ICJ. And its up to them to make rulings.
His government's been bought and paid for by the zionists. But maybe he realises the edifice is built on sand given the detailed election results. Knowing his record on going back on what he's said I am confident his proud record of recantation will continue on the zionists too. After all he's said he doesn't give a shit about the Muslim vote and perhaps more importantly he almost certainly thinks he'll be aligned with corbyn in the mail and Telegraph if he shifts his position in accord with international law
 
His government's been bought and paid for by the zionists. But maybe he realises the edifice is built on sand given the detailed election results. Knowing his record on going back on what he's said I am confident his proud record of recantation will continue on the zionists too. After all he's said he doesn't give a shit about the Muslim vote and perhaps more importantly he almost certainly thinks he'll be aligned with corbyn in the mail and Telegraph if he shifts his position in accord with international law
Another war criminal in the making
 
Only when the USA called for a cease fire in Gaza did Starmer begin to parrot them. Look to the USA for further developments.

Sometimes I get the idea that the UK is the 51st state.
 
RUSI is mainstream organisation. Read this from one of its contributers. One of their senior associate fellows

Quite surprised how it comes across as radical in a UK context.


There is also link in this article to another on EU position.


So he's saying that:

The 2030 Roadmap agreed between Israel and Tory government should be suspended for the time being whilst the international legal cases go on

UK government should be consistent in how it applies a rules based order. ( Ie Ukraine contrasts with Gaza)

Restore funding to UNWRA ( Lammy has done this)

Publish legal advice on arms sales

Suspend arms sales license in line with other EU countries

End the legal challenge of previous government to the ICC

Make clear it supports ICC and ICJ. Defend the head of the ICC from attack by US. Khan the head is also a UK citizen. So UK government should support him.

Immediate recognition of state of Palestine.

Settlements in West Bank are illegal under international law. So UK should start thinking about sanctions against not just hard line religious settlers but the overall process of building settlements. This would be targeting senior Israeli political figures and the Israeli state.


In the article on EU ,and this applies to UK. immediate recognition of Palestinian state is symbolic but its a first step.

The context is that Israeli society has changed since Oslo. Far right are now the centre right in Israeli state terms. Similar to how far right in Europe have gained respectability.

Got to the point that Knesset politicians publicly reject two state solution.

So only way to make a peace, and this he says is needed as both UK and EU need a stable middle east, is now to force it on Israel.

So in effect he's supporting sanctions/ arrest warrants and ending military or other diplomatic support to Israel state whilst its occupying land set aside for a Palestinian state.

It's almost without saying it supporting BDS.
 
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Another mainstream view that got the person accused of anti semitism.

Alan Duncan the Tory has been cleared of anti semitism.

This is worth a watch.

Shows how what should be mainstream views are in UK regarded as suspect if not anti Semitic.

An independent panel cleared him.

It's put a lot of pressure on him. But he said he refuses to be bullied to stop airing his views on Israel/ Palestine.

Turns out no complaint was made against him. But that the Conservative party took it upon themselves to make one against him.

Using comments from groups like Campaign Against Anti Semitism and the Board of Deputies of British Jews.

He argues that his views are in line with government policy that settlements in West Bank are illegal under international law.

However there is undue influence of Conservative Friends of Israel on the Tory party. Which means that someone like him can come under attack for legitimate opinions.

He also says the IHRA definition plus examples plays a role in de legitimising criticism of Israel.

He complains that MPs would rather keep their heads down and not criticise Israel because of this. Plus the lobbying of MPs- trips to Israel etc goes on.



Its not above board and is not democratic. It effectively shields Israeli governments and goes against what UK state policy supposedly is in theory.

He's obviously had to put his life on hold , spend out on legal fees to defend himself.

Appalling example of how someone is hounded for views on Palestine/ Israel.
 
The always good Al Jazeera Inside Story on the ICJ ruling.

Which Netanyahu has dismissed as absurd as this is Jewish land.

What is to be expected from a Zionist.



It's a ruling but advisory. Trouble with ICJ is that it has no mechanism to enforce judgements.

However UN countries could try to enforce it by breaking links with the State of Israel.

In the Inside Story one contributor says that this ruling still needs to be seen in realistic terms. Not all settlers will go.

Therefore land swaps are necessary.

The legal person working for PA points out this is not what the ICJ ruling says.

These Jewish settlers must go. And the land handed back to Palestinians.

The ruling is a game changer as its clear.

This is an occupation. No ambiguity.

Israel must hand it back and leave.
 
You can't parrot someone before they say something. And you are as ever unoriginal
I've just got round to checking this out using the new Microsoft aid:

The U.S. government first called for a ceasefire in Gaza during the ongoing Israel-Hamas war. In January 2024, more than 23,000 Palestinians had been killed in the besieged Gaza Strip since Hamas launched an unprecedented attack on Israel in October 2023. San Francisco was among the U.S. cities that approved resolutions urging President Joe Biden’s administration to seek a lasting ceasefire1. Additionally, the U.S. submitted a resolution to the United Nations calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, tied to the release of Israeli hostages23. The situation remains complex, with debates over U.S. support for Israel and its impact on key voters during an election year.

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msn.com
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thehill.com
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nbcnews.com
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msn.com
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lbc.co.uk
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newsweek.com





Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer first called for a “ceasefire that lasts” in the Israel-Gaza conflict during a speech at the Scottish Labour conference in Glasgow on February 18, 2024. His remarks came a day after the conference passed a motion calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza12. The situation remains complex, with debates over the urgency and sustainability of the ceasefire, as well as the involvement of various stakeholders in finding a lasting solution to the conflict.

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bbc.co.uk
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bbc.com
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msn.com
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uk.news.yahoo.com
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dailymail.co.uk
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gettyimages.com
 
I've just got round to checking this out using the new Microsoft aid:

The U.S. government first called for a ceasefire in Gaza during the ongoing Israel-Hamas war. In January 2024, more than 23,000 Palestinians had been killed in the besieged Gaza Strip since Hamas launched an unprecedented attack on Israel in October 2023. San Francisco was among the U.S. cities that approved resolutions urging President Joe Biden’s administration to seek a lasting ceasefire1. Additionally, the U.S. submitted a resolution to the United Nations calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, tied to the release of Israeli hostages23. The situation remains complex, with debates over U.S. support for Israel and its impact on key voters during an election year.

1
msn.com
2
thehill.com
3
nbcnews.com
4
msn.com
5
lbc.co.uk
6
newsweek.com





Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer first called for a “ceasefire that lasts” in the Israel-Gaza conflict during a speech at the Scottish Labour conference in Glasgow on February 18, 2024. His remarks came a day after the conference passed a motion calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza12. The situation remains complex, with debates over the urgency and sustainability of the ceasefire, as well as the involvement of various stakeholders in finding a lasting solution to the conflict.

1
bbc.co.uk
2
bbc.com
3
msn.com
4
uk.news.yahoo.com
5
dailymail.co.uk
6
gettyimages.com
not content with taking a tumble down the stupid tree and whacking your head on every branch you seem to have stuffed yourself with its fruit too.
 

View from Haaretz.

It is correct to say that defence of the occupation by Israel was:

1. West Bank and Gaza had been occupied by Jordan and Egypt. So were not in legal terms sovereign territories that the international laws post WW2 applied to.

2. The Oslo accords meant that Israel had in theory accepted it would hand over to Palestinian government. So accepted it would at some time in future hand it over. However long that would be. Agreements that Arafat signed up to without properly seeing the consequences of them for Palestinians. Or that State of Israel had no intention of letting Palestinians have a genuine state.


This is example of why some Palestinians thought the Oslo agreements were a disaster for Palestinians. As Arafat gave to much away to the Israeli negotiators.

The present push by Palestinians and others to go back to the international legal situation is a sign of that the Oslo accords and all those years of talks have been a failure for Palestinans.







To add to the Haaretz list in early days State of Israel argued the early settlements could be classed as temporary not permanent annexation. As in case of Gaza they left and demolished to settlements. Also the settlements could be argued to be for security reasons.

State of Israel used a whole raft of laws to justify its occupation and taking of land over the years.
 
ICJ rulings are good moral positions but without enforcement they’re largely ignorable by the accused…

ICJ ruling is not a moral position its a legal one. Based on international law.

Among other things it gives basis for sanctions/ disinvestment etc of Israel. Which countries like UK are trying to ban.

ICJ ruling uses terms like Apartheid to describe it.

No longer can people be criticised for using terms like Apartheid after this ruling. Or be criticised for supporting sanctions and disinvestment.

International law can be seen as another battleground in the fight against the occupation. And its one State of Israel has just lost.
 
ICJ ruling is not a moral position its a legal one. Based on international law.

Among other things it gives basis for sanctions/ disinvestment etc of Israel. Which countries like UK are trying to ban.

ICJ ruling uses terms like Apartheid to describe it.

No longer can people be criticised for using terms like Apartheid after this ruling. Or be criticised for supporting sanctions and disinvestment.

International law can be seen as another battleground in the fight against the occupation. And its one State of Israel has just lost.
they still will be so criticised no doubt
 
Its all so complex and Israel is being unfairly picked is going to be line taken.

Plus the usual support for a two state solution. That never seems to happen.

Which is fault of Palestinians.

Here is example:

 

View from Haaretz.

It is correct to say that defence of the occupation by Israel was:

1. West Bank and Gaza had been occupied by Jordan and Egypt. So were not in legal terms sovereign territories that the international laws post WW2 applied to.

2. The Oslo accords meant that Israel had in theory accepted it would hand over to Palestinian government. So accepted it would at some time in future hand it over. However long that would be. Agreements that Arafat signed up to without properly seeing the consequences of them for Palestinians. Or that State of Israel had no intention of letting Palestinians have a genuine state.


This is example of why some Palestinians thought the Oslo agreements were a disaster for Palestinians. As Arafat gave to much away to the Israeli negotiators.

The present push by Palestinians and others to go back to the international legal situation is a sign of that the Oslo accords and all those years of talks have been a failure for Palestinans.







To add to the Haaretz list in early days State of Israel argued the early settlements could be classed as temporary not permanent annexation. As in case of Gaza they left and demolished to settlements. Also the settlements could be argued to be for security reasons.

State of Israel used a whole raft of laws to justify its occupation and taking of land over the years.

I've heard of the first argument before ie that Israel is occupying territory that wasn't previously an autonomous state, and whereas it has no moral weight I had no idea if it had legal weight. I was pleasantly surprised by the ICJ ruling.

The second argument that Israel is just taking it's time to withdraw is surely impossible to sustain given the west bank settlements, the wall and the annexation of East Jerusalem.
 
UK government are having a think about the ruling before responding

Yes it's so complex.



In other words, they haven't thought up an argument against it yet.

Coming up with elaborate sophistry to counter simple truths is complex.
 
I've heard of the first argument before ie that Israel is occupying territory that wasn't previously an autonomous state, and whereas it has no moral weight I had no idea if it had legal weight. I was pleasantly surprised by the ICJ ruling.

The second argument that Israel is just taking it's time to withdraw is surely impossible to sustain given the west bank settlements, the wall and the annexation of East Jerusalem.

Last of my posts have been informed by reading this book. Which I started before the ICJ ruling. I'm only half way through. And its fascinating book.


I'm not big on morality. As its something so fuzzy.

Israel state had a point on the occupation of West Bank. Jordan had annexed it. Without international support. Only two countries ( UK being one) recognised this annexation of Palestine Mandate land by Jordan.

So yes Israel state had a legal point.

What it argued in legal terms was that West Bank and Gaza were not clear cut issues re international law at the time. So it was in legal terms a Sui generis situation. Otherwise known as Israeli exceptionalism.

To add Sui Generis in this legal situation means unique case that is not fully covered by existing law. As this case was not foreseen when the international laws were decided.

So the occupation was for Israel up for debate in legal terms.

Before the right wing lot came later the Israeli state realised it could not do a 48 but it did produce a plan for land for peace.

This imo is what the more sensible Zionists have continued to put forward from the early days of occupation.

Israel State would have strategic bits of West Bank and Palestinians other areas less important, That was always on the cards from 67.

With Palestinians being given some limited self government.

The second case about the Oslo accords is that State of Israel thought the agreement meant that Palestinians had waived right to recourse to international law. This was the mistake that Arafat made in agreeing to Oslo.

Both US and Israel wanted what they called direct negotiations without going on about international law.

TBF given that Israel state is now run by elected hardline Zionists who don't give a shit all this comes across as all academic and historical.

I'm only half way through Noura Erakat book. So did not mention it before.

Israel as a State liked to see itself as western style democratic state that believes in the rule of law ( well it did before its recent turn to the hard right and religious right.)

So its always , until recently , had legal teams working on what Noura calls the legal work to justify its actions in West Bank and Gaza.

For Noura international law about states is not the same as law for individuals in a state.

One thing is that there is no overall enforcement. If I as an individual break a law in the state I am in it comes down on me.

International law is an area of contestation. Made up of different elements. And capable of change depending on the the political forces involved.

And up until now State of Israel have been pretty good at creative use of international law.
 
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What would concern me is that a lot of people are understandably delighted at the ICJ advisory ruling.

What will happen however imo is that UK will agree that the ICJ ruling is legitimate.

But argue that realistically this means peace talks should be restarted.

But the same problem of Oslo will resurface.

Palestinians will be pressured to accept some kind of land for peace deal.

What should happen is that the settlers go and the land / resources returned to Palestinians.

BTW some Palestinians were ethnically cleansed out of West Bank in 67. As court says reparations are in order.
 
Remember reading Ilan Pappe book on 67 and the occupation. Moshe Dayan was moaning at some government meetings that pesky UN observers turned up at one village and so they could not encourage them to get on the buses for Jordan
 
This is what is happening, please listen:


There was a very good feature on C4 news tonight about people being displaced for the nth time. Absolutely heartbreaking - little kids crying out in terror as they run away from horror, people missing family members, an elderly woman sitting by the road not knowing whether to flee or just give in. The human element of displacement is just horrific.

The desperate situation in Gaza seems to be dropping out of the news, replaced by Biden's decision to stand down, endless shit about Trump etc. It's not that it's not being reported in Western media, just made secondary. At least Labour (here) and the Democrats (in the US) appear to be finally sitting up and taking notice of the effect on the Muslim or Arab-American vote - but it's for cynical reasons (votes) rather than moral or humanitarian ones. :mad:
 

Mustafa Barghouti, secretary-general of the Palestinian National Initiative, one of the 14 factions to sign the accord, told Al Jazeera the agreement goes “much further” than any other reached in recent years.

He said its four main elements are the establishment of an interim national unity government, the formation of unified Palestinian leadership ahead of future elections, the free election of a new Palestinian National Council, and a general declaration of unity in the face of ongoing Israeli attacks.

Barghouti has played previous role in talking to both Hamas and Fatah. As even though PNI is small faction he is respected by all sides. I expect he played a role in talking to all sides this time. He has called for unity before. The second paragraph sounds like Barghouti.

He also says:

The move towards a unity government is especially important, he said, because it “blocks Israeli efforts to create some sort of collaborative structure against Palestinian interests”.

Yes this will piss off Israel.

Hamas are not in PLO. But given that it sounds like China has helped to get a unity of the different factions.

Bit surprised China has got this involved.

Its eminently sensible idea.

Wonder how UK and USA will react to this?
 
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