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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion



Just read about this and found this short piece on Democracy Now. Palestinian Israeli academic who has dual US/ Israeli citizenship. Grew up in Haifi. Also has taught at university in UK.

Now under arrest. And still held in police custody despite after search of her home little was found. Appears arrested for "incitement"

The only incitement has been criticising Israeli State and Zionism. And Israeli state actions in Gaza

What its like to live in this great democracy. Its not a democracy for Palestinians if they start getting to critical.

I didn't know her work. Sounds interesting. She specialises in affect of colonialism on children and women.
 
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Knotted said:
The conversation about Arab states treatment of Palestinian refugees is a bit odd if only because each state has done very different things. It's particularly odd to accuse Jordan of failing to integrate their refugees given that the majority have been given Jordanian citizenship and are thus deprived of their refugee status and the right of return.
Click to expand...
Jordan occupied and annexed the West Bank and Jerusalem after 1948. The didn't generously grant Palestinians citizenship. They forced them into being Jordanian citizens. In September 1970 (Black September), after the loss of the West Bank, the Jordanian regime turned on the Palestinian resistance who they perceived as a threat to the Royal regime.

 
krtek a houby said:
Plans to unseat US progressives who are critical of the Israeli government/IDF

www.theguardian.com

Pro-Israel US groups plan $100m effort to unseat progressives over Gaza

Aipac and other groups targeting candidates critical of Israel’s war in Gaza – but progressives are not going down without a fight
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...

Got impression nearer end of this article that the aggressive attacks on politicians who aren't considered pro Israel enough and support Palestinian rights could back fire on Zionist lobby groups in USA.

After all, unless I missed something, these politicians targeted aren't calling for destruction of Israel or it's Jewish population.

Just supporting Palestinians rights and opposing Israel war on Gaza.

American public might not be swayed by these thousands of dollars poured into attack ads etc.

I feel sorry for the progressive democrats targeted by AIPAC.

It's about time AIPAC was taken down a peg or two.
 
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teqniq said:
This is an interesting read:

From Gaza to Iran, the Netanyahu Government Is Endangering Israel's Survival
Click to expand...

Problem with people like Yuval Noah Harari is that they go on and on about Netanyahu and the right in Israel, so think they are nice liberal people, but in practise aren't really opposing what IDF/ Israel have been doing. Here is example:

Conversely, if Israel found it difficult to deliver enough aid into Gaza, and since Egypt and other countries refused to host Palestinian refugees, Israel could have created safe havens for Palestinian civilians on Israeli territory near the Egyptian border, south of the Strip. Hundreds of thousands of women, children, elderly and sick refugees from Gaza could have found shelter in these safe zones. There, Israel could have made sure the refugees received all the basic necessities and were protected from attack, as long as the fighting in Gaza continued.
Click to expand...

Israel could have created "safe zones" to host Palestinian refugees. These are the refugees caused by IDF/ Israel government.

And note it say Israel could create them and supply them. Not anyone else like UNRWA. Or other independent organisation under UN

These "safe zones" of people IDF expelled or made homeless from rest of Gaza would be more like prison camps run by Israel.

Whilst the population of Gaza is held in these "safe Zones" in south of Gaza he is effectively saying IDF will have free reign in rest of Gaza.


I mean I'm tired of reading this kind of thing. It's been popping up regularly now.

The internal strife in Israel between hard right and more liberal centre is all very important to Israelis but imo does not necessarily effect in real day to day terms how Palestinians long term future is treated. Its a nicer form of occupation.
 
tim said:
Jordan occupied and annexed the West Bank and Jerusalem after 1948. The didn't generously grant Palestinians citizenship. They forced them into being Jordanian citizens. In September 1970 (Black September), after the loss of the West Bank, the Jordanian regime turned on the Palestinian resistance who they perceived as a threat to the Royal regime.

Click to expand...


Yes I'm aware.
 
Knotted said:
Yes I'm aware.
Click to expand...

I thought your original post was merely pointing out that Jordan had made Palestinians Jordanian citizens. Which in previous posts on thread it had been implied Jordan among other states in 48 had not "adopted" Palestinians.

So you were making a valid point of fact.

Now I see from another poster the argument is put that Jordan "forced" them.

So its either Arab states did not provide safe have and adopt them or they forced them to accept being adopted.

Can't win can you?
 
Gramsci said:
I thought your original post was merely pointing out that Jordan had made Palestinians Jordanian citizens. Which in previous posts on thread it had been implied Jordan among other states in 48 had not "adopted" Palestinians.

So you were making a valid point of fact.

Now I see from another poster the argument is put that Jordan "forced" them.

So its either Arab states did not provide safe have and adopt them or they forced them to accept being adopted.

Can't win can you?
Click to expand...

That other "poster", you refer to is me.

My point was that after 1948 the Hashemite entity occupied and in 1950 annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem. They didn't do this because they supported the Palestinian cause, but because they wanted Palestinian land which meant denying Palestinians the right to self-determination:oops:ccupation, not adoption. There was huge Palestinian and broader Arab opposition to the land grab, which culminated in 1951 with the assasination of the Abdullah, the British imposed Jordanian King. At the time and for long afterJordan was a British client state with a British controlled military.
 
tim said:
That other "poster", you refer to is me.

My point was that after 1948 the Hashemite entity occupied and in 1950 annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem. They didn't do this because they supported the Palestinian cause, but because they wanted Palestinian land which meant denying Palestinians the right to self-determination:oops:ccupation, not adoption. There was huge Palestinian and broader Arab opposition to the land grab, which culminated in 1951 with the assasination of the Abdullah, the British imposed Jordanian King. At the time and for long afterJordan was a British client state with a British controlled military.
Click to expand...

The Kingdom also took in and gave citizenship to those expelled from what is now Israel as well as those living in the West Bank.

So it was not just those Palestinians living in West Bank.

According this Palestinian history view of Palestinians were mixed at the time.

www.palquest.org

Palestinians in Jordan, 1948-1967

Highlight - The Making of the “Jordanians of Palestinian Origin” - After the 1948 Palestine War , the geographic and demographic structures of Jordan were entwined with those of Palestine. In April 1950 the...
www.palquest.org

When Israel occupied West Bank some Jordanian Palestinians from West Bank moved across to what was left of Jordan.
Or were expelled by IDF in some cases. Though full ethnic cleansing of West Bank did not happen.

Of course the Arab street in Jordan has been pro Palestinian.
 
I also remember reading that one of the reasons for the Jordanian governments increasing hostility to the Palestinians, culminating in September 1970, was that Palestinians were disproportionately involved in democracy/anti-Hashemite monarchy movements in the 1950's and 60's, which might be expected given the more 'cosmopolitan' nature of many of the Palestinian population. Which is a counterpoint to the claim (that ironically mirrors those made by anti-semites) that there is something particularly beastly about the Palestinians that every country they go to rejects them.
 
Gramsci said:
The Kingdom also took in and gave citizenship to those expelled from what is now Israel as well as those living in the West Bank.

So it was not just those Palestinians living in West Bank.

According this Palestinian history view of Palestinians were mixed at the time.

www.palquest.org

Palestinians in Jordan, 1948-1967

Highlight - The Making of the “Jordanians of Palestinian Origin” - After the 1948 Palestine War , the geographic and demographic structures of Jordan were entwined with those of Palestine. In April 1950 the...
www.palquest.org

When Israel occupied West Bank some Jordanian Palestinians from West Bank moved across to what was left of Jordan.
Or were expelled by IDF in some cases. Though full ethnic cleansing of West Bank did not happen.

Of course the Arab street in Jordan has been pro Palestinian.
Click to expand...
Yes, the "Kingdom" loved Palestinians, as long as they were willing to stop being Palestinians and conform.

'The “Jordanization” process was reinforced through a “de-Palestinization” policy: the term “Palestine” was banned from all official documents in May 1950, and Jordan's official school curriculum promoted the idea of the unified Kingdom as a “little Arab homeland.”' - from your source

The current Russian occupation regime in Ukraine loves Ukrainians just as long as they are willing to stop being Ukrainian and settle down in the great unified Slav homeland.

Aren't jumped up little kings and wannabe Tsars amazing?
 
Johnny Vodka said:
The Yanks are threatening to do something against certain IDF battalions.

www.theguardian.com

Netanyahu vows to fight US sanctions on IDF unit accused of violations in West Bank

Israeli leaders vow to oppose expected measures under Leahy law against the Netzah Yehuda battalion
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...

An IDF battalion that takes hard line settlers in.

I cannot help but feel Biden will do this for show. Its saying lets root out the few rotten apples from the barrel ie target a few hard line settlers and all will be well. Its tokenistic.

When the problem is how Israel operates as a State in relation to Palestinians. And has done for decades.
 
Gramsci said:
An IDF battalion that takes hard line settlers in.

I cannot help but feel Biden will do this for show. Its saying lets root out the few rotten apples from the barrel ie target a few hard line settlers and all will be well. Its tokenistic.

When the problem is how Israel operates as a State in relation to Palestinians. And has done for decades.
Click to expand...

Absolutely tokenistic given the massive sale of weapons still. Though it sounds like Netanyahu is having a meltdown about it regardless.
 
Unrolled thread explaining the 'sanction' on the Israeli battalion, to cut to the chase it really won't make a great deal of difference:

threadreaderapp.com

Thread by @Seharrison7 on Thread Reader App

@Seharrison7: It might be helpful to walk through some issues related to reports that the USG is finally applying the Leahy laws to Israel--even though reports say it is just one unit. BLUF: It is symbolically...…
threadreaderapp.com threadreaderapp.com
 
Gramsci said:
Problem with people like Yuval Noah Harari is that they go on and on about Netanyahu and the right in Israel, so think they are nice liberal people, but in practise aren't really opposing what IDF/ Israel have been doing. Here is example:



Israel could have created "safe zones" to host Palestinian refugees. These are the refugees caused by IDF/ Israel government.

And note it say Israel could create them and supply them. Not anyone else like UNRWA. Or other independent organisation under UN

These "safe zones" of people IDF expelled or made homeless from rest of Gaza would be more like prison camps run by Israel.

Whilst the population of Gaza is held in these "safe Zones" in south of Gaza he is effectively saying IDF will have free reign in rest of Gaza.


I mean I'm tired of reading this kind of thing. It's been popping up regularly now.

The internal strife in Israel between hard right and more liberal centre is all very important to Israelis but imo does not necessarily effect in real day to day terms how Palestinians long term future is treated. Its a nicer form of occupation.
Click to expand...
Yuval Hariri - the mega-brain genius who said "Hitler was a humanist".
 
To nobody's surprise:

www.theguardian.com

Israel has yet to provide evidence of Unrwa staff terrorist links, Colonna report says

Exclusive: review finds government yet to substantiate claims UN relief agency staff have ties to Hamas or Islamic Jihad
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

So now an independent investigation has found that Israel made a bunch of unsubstantiated accusations hamstringing the region's most important aid body at precisely the moment the IDF was physically denying aid into the region, no doubt there will be repercussions for this deliberate and successful effort to sabotage food supplies to starving civilians? I won't hold my breath for either that or a reversal of the US funding ban.
 
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