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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

Very interesting aspect of all this
blog.paulbiggar.com

Meta and Lavender

A little-discussed detail in the Lavender AI article is that Israel is killing people based on being in the same Whatsapp group [1] as a suspected militant [2]. Where are they getting this data? Is WhatsApp sharing it? Lavender is Israel's system of "pre-crime" [3] - they use AI to
blog.paulbiggar.com blog.paulbiggar.com

little-discussed detail in the Lavender AI article is that Israel is killing people based on being in the same Whatsapp group [1] as a suspected militant [2]. Where are they getting this data? Is WhatsApp sharing it?

Lavender is Israel's system of "pre-crime" [3] - they use AI to guess who to kill in Gaza, and then bomb them when they're at home, along with their entire family. (Obscenely, they call this program "Where's Daddy").

One input to the AI is whether you're in a WhatsApp group with a suspected member of Hamas. There's a lot wrong with this - I'm in plenty of WhatsApp groups with strangers, neighbours, and in the carnage in Gaza you bet people are making groups to connect.

But the part I want to focus on is whether they get this information from Meta. Meta has been promoting WhatsApp as a "private" social network, including "end-to-end" encryption of messages.

Providing this data as input for Lavender undermines their claim that WhatsApp is a private messaging app. It is beyond obscene and makes Meta complicit in Israel's killings of "pre-crime" targets and their families, in violation of International Humanitarian Law and Meta's publicly stated commitment to human rights. No social network should be providing this sort of information about its users to countries engaging in "pre-crime".

It's important to note that already Meta is taking extensive part in the Israeli-led and US-backed genocide, including significant and well-reported suppression of content supporting Palestinian freedom, as well a new anti-"anti-zionist" policy that is used to shut down dissent of Israel's crimes

etc
 
ska invita said:
Very interesting aspect of all this
blog.paulbiggar.com

Meta and Lavender

A little-discussed detail in the Lavender AI article is that Israel is killing people based on being in the same Whatsapp group [1] as a suspected militant [2]. Where are they getting this data? Is WhatsApp sharing it? Lavender is Israel's system of "pre-crime" [3] - they use AI to
blog.paulbiggar.com blog.paulbiggar.com

little-discussed detail in the Lavender AI article is that Israel is killing people based on being in the same Whatsapp group [1] as a suspected militant [2]. Where are they getting this data? Is WhatsApp sharing it?

Lavender is Israel's system of "pre-crime" [3] - they use AI to guess who to kill in Gaza, and then bomb them when they're at home, along with their entire family. (Obscenely, they call this program "Where's Daddy").

One input to the AI is whether you're in a WhatsApp group with a suspected member of Hamas. There's a lot wrong with this - I'm in plenty of WhatsApp groups with strangers, neighbours, and in the carnage in Gaza you bet people are making groups to connect.

But the part I want to focus on is whether they get this information from Meta. Meta has been promoting WhatsApp as a "private" social network, including "end-to-end" encryption of messages.

Providing this data as input for Lavender undermines their claim that WhatsApp is a private messaging app. It is beyond obscene and makes Meta complicit in Israel's killings of "pre-crime" targets and their families, in violation of International Humanitarian Law and Meta's publicly stated commitment to human rights. No social network should be providing this sort of information about its users to countries engaging in "pre-crime".

It's important to note that already Meta is taking extensive part in the Israeli-led and US-backed genocide, including significant and well-reported suppression of content supporting Palestinian freedom, as well a new anti-"anti-zionist" policy that is used to shut down dissent of Israel's crimes

etc
Click to expand...

There was a lot of that (original Lavender AI one, not that one you have quoted) article that could easily be disinformation, not least the idea that they are using it to go after suspected militants.
 
zahir said:
A view from Israel

www.972mag.com

Six months after October 7, a lament for the paths not chosen

I write to Israelis who believe they have no place in their hearts for Gaza, to understand how we got to this war — and to get out of it.
www.972mag.com www.972mag.com
Click to expand...

Excellent article, I hope it gets people talking there.

South Tel Aviv / Bat Yam / Rishon le'Tzion is less than an hour's drive from Gaza. I can easily imagine a kind of desperate normality going on there. For people who actually care it must feel shit to be so close but really unable to do anything. Well, unable to do anything that wasn't likely to end with you in hospital, prison or a grave.

Mass protests would be great, but .. well I think Israeli society has a way to go yet. On that way though, I'd wish for everyone of school age or older in Israel to read the article.

And this is nicely put, very succinct...

That leadership [a new one, read the article!] needs to do everything in its power to end the historical injustice against all Palestinians, including through negotiations, to establish a political solution based on these principles — whether in the framework of two states, one state, or a confederation — and by meeting the just demands that have been articulated by the PLO, UN resolutions, the Arab Peace Initiative, and the BDS campaign. A future vision must include a means for addressing the crimes committed by members of both nations against the other, and establishing a new regional order that will allow free movement and flourishing for both peoples.
 
mojo pixy said:
Excellent article, I hope it gets people talking there.

South Tel Aviv / Bat Yam / Rishon le'Tzion is less than an hour's drive from Gaza. I can easily imagine a kind of desperate normality going on there. For people who actually care it must feel shit to be so close but really unable to do anything. Well, unable to do anything that wasn't likely to end with you in hospital, prison or a grave.

Mass protests would be great, but .. well I think Israeli society has a way to go yet. On that way though, I'd wish for everyone of school age or older in Israel to read the article.

And this is nicely put, very succinct...

That leadership [a new one, read the article!] needs to do everything in its power to end the historical injustice against all Palestinians, including through negotiations, to establish a political solution based on these principles — whether in the framework of two states, one state, or a confederation — and by meeting the just demands that have been articulated by the PLO, UN resolutions, the Arab Peace Initiative, and the BDS campaign. A future vision must include a means for addressing the crimes committed by members of both nations against the other, and establishing a new regional order that will allow free movement and flourishing for both peoples.
Click to expand...
Yes..agreed .. it is an excellent article.
 
Gramsci said:
And Palestinians have a right to resist I would have thought.

Reminded saw this few weeks ago. Young journalist, born in Gaza. Her family managed to get out. Now in Australia.

She resisted by covering what was happening to Gaza

She recounts how her grandfather would tell her about his home in what is now Israel he left in 48. They left their dog behind because they thought once fighting finished they would come back.

Never happened. Now she is in same situation as her grandfather.

The trauma of expulsion and exile due to Zionism continues down the generations.

She still hopes to return.

Is this being unreasonable? Not just accepting ones lot?

Click to expand...


To quote myself I remember one of the things the young woman from Gaza said was about humanising Palestinians. In her journalism in Gaza during the IDF attack she tried to portray people as going about their daily lives. For her it was important to show Palestinians in a way that shows them as "ordinary" people. Like people everywhere. Not only pictures of them as objects of violence.

By humanising Palestinians in her journalism she is opposing this view that Palestinians should just move on and accept their lot.

The Palestinian refugee problem wont go away as Palestinians like her and those she made reports on refuse to just accept their lot.

Refusing to leave Gaza / trying to make way back from the south to the north despite IDF/ staying in the north despite being treated as enemy combatants. This is all resistance.

The young journalist going out every day to document what has happened is a form of resistance.

Resistance is not only about dramatic violent action. Its about a refusal.

Those who say why don't other countries take them in just do not get the point. Having to leave due to Zionist state is a form of violence. Implying that this happens elsewhere so stop going on about does not justify what is happening in real time in 2024 on media - due to the bravery of a young Palestinians like this. And its an insult to Palestinians in Gaza.

BTW I'm not going to criticise someone like her for leaving. In her interview I posted up she said her mental health was paradoxically better when she was in Gaza with IDF raining down bombs. But her family were not happy with her going out reporting as it was so dangerous.
 
agricola said:
The one that has always stuck in my mind is how one of the markets in Hebron has netting above all the alleyways and shops, because the settlement oversees that market and the occupants of said settlement like to throw things at the shoppers.
Click to expand...

Eyal Weissmann in his book Hollow Land goes into this kind of small details of how Zionism operates. Its in the details that the day to day oppression is seen. So your example is an apt one.

His book mainly deals with the Occupied territories. He does mention Israel itself sometimes. After the Nakba as Ilan Pappe say Palestinian architecture / history was mainly erased from what is now the state of Israel.
However a few Palestinian communities survived.

In one bit about Israel itself he recounts how a "Green" mound was built between one of the Palestinian Arab villages and the neighbouring post 48 Jewish settlement. The settlement complained about the Palestinian village so the green mound was built so they did not have to see it and to discourage "arabs" from coming over.
 
Israel gets to do a genocide in Gaza bomb a consulate on foreign soil and then after being given a 72hr warning, deflect an attack.

The result of that is the US give them permission to attack Rafah, which had been a red line before, and attack Iran directly as long as it's limited.

It feels like going insane how much that fucking state is allowed to do what it fucking likes.
 
I see Isfahan has several nuclear sites. I suspect Israel is hoping for support in taking these out.
That aside, wtf is Israel thinking of. Invading Palestine, attacking Iran. What next.
 
hash tag said:
I see Isfahan has several nuclear sites. I suspect Israel is hoping for support in taking these out.
That aside, wtf is Israel thinking of. Invading Palestine, attacking Iran. What next.
Click to expand...

As long as they're under threat, Bibi stays in power. It's strong arming the US into full throated support again after the US said "hey turn the war crimes down 0.1%" after the world central kitchen workers got murdered
 
Yeah nah, he's mad unpopular in Israel but he can hang on in there if it's still wartime eh. So yeah in some ways what you're saying has a bit of merit, but Netanyahu is exercising state military power from his small war cabinet for his own political survival.

Gantz etc who are also in that war cabinet are cool with this because they know they're going to be the alternative when Bibi eventually loses whatever election they hold.
 
agricola said:
Of course it should be remembered that "security prisoners" are those seized off the street, not those charged (or convicted) of anything and potentially indefinitely. He is in essence talking about shooting hostages.
Click to expand...
Hmm, rounding up people off the streets because of their ethnic background, sending them off to internment camps and then murdering them. Hang on… I’m sure I’ve heard of that happening before, somewhere.
 
Balbi said:
Yeah nah, he's mad unpopular in Israel but he can hang on in there if it's still wartime eh. So yeah in some ways what you're saying has a bit of merit, but Netanyahu is exercising state military power from his small war cabinet for his own political survival.

Gantz etc who are also in that war cabinet are cool with this because they know they're going to be the alternative when Bibi eventually loses whatever election they hold.
Click to expand...
This notion you can't change leader in wartime is a refuge of the power hungry, but numerous examples of leadership change in conflict are available - the Romans, during the Republic, changed consuls almost every year including iirc throughout the punic wars. More recently Nicholas ii, kerensky, Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt all stand as men who've left power as heads of government by various means during wartime. Not to mention lyndon baines Johnson, gwb, and barak Obama.
 
Pickman's model said:
This notion you can't change leader in wartime is a refuge of the power hungry, but numerous examples of leadership change in conflict are available - the Romans, during the Republic, changed consuls almost every year including iirc throughout the punic wars. More recently Nicholas ii, kerensky, Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt all stand as men who've left power as heads of government by various means during wartime. Not to mention lyndon baines Johnson, gwb, and barak Obama.
Click to expand...

And a little closer to home, Neville Chamberlain
 
ska invita said:
Very interesting aspect of all this
blog.paulbiggar.com

Meta and Lavender

A little-discussed detail in the Lavender AI article is that Israel is killing people based on being in the same Whatsapp group [1] as a suspected militant [2]. Where are they getting this data? Is WhatsApp sharing it? Lavender is Israel's system of "pre-crime" [3] - they use AI to
blog.paulbiggar.com blog.paulbiggar.com

little-discussed detail in the Lavender AI article is that Israel is killing people based on being in the same Whatsapp group [1] as a suspected militant [2]. Where are they getting this data? Is WhatsApp sharing it?

Lavender is Israel's system of "pre-crime" [3] - they use AI to guess who to kill in Gaza, and then bomb them when they're at home, along with their entire family. (Obscenely, they call this program "Where's Daddy").

One input to the AI is whether you're in a WhatsApp group with a suspected member of Hamas. There's a lot wrong with this - I'm in plenty of WhatsApp groups with strangers, neighbours, and in the carnage in Gaza you bet people are making groups to connect.

But the part I want to focus on is whether they get this information from Meta. Meta has been promoting WhatsApp as a "private" social network, including "end-to-end" encryption of messages.

Providing this data as input for Lavender undermines their claim that WhatsApp is a private messaging app. It is beyond obscene and makes Meta complicit in Israel's killings of "pre-crime" targets and their families, in violation of International Humanitarian Law and Meta's publicly stated commitment to human rights. No social network should be providing this sort of information about its users to countries engaging in "pre-crime".

It's important to note that already Meta is taking extensive part in the Israeli-led and US-backed genocide, including significant and well-reported suppression of content supporting Palestinian freedom, as well a new anti-"anti-zionist" policy that is used to shut down dissent of Israel's crimes

etc
Click to expand...
That information about who is contacting who etc is ironically enough classed as meta data (small m) and generally wouldn't be end to end encrypted as it's needed by the provider to route messages.

I wouldn't be surprised if WhatsApp shared this information under anti-terrorism laws etc. If a court in Israel said person
A was a terrorist and we need their logs to investigate I'd expect most internet companies to share.

However I think anyone sharing data with Israel now needs to factor in what it'll be used for.

That being said Israel is also pretty hot on it's tech for interrogating phones and using zero day exploits to spy on users devices so I think it's quite possible they've just got this data from captured devices or even just having users in these groups.
 
[This is based on something that I posted on the Ukraine was threat, but I thought that it is also relevant to this thread].

What are the principles on which we base our political positions?

If it is correct to arm the Ukrainian armed forces to defend the sovereignty of the Ukrainian state, would it be correct to arm Palestinian armed groups to enable them to achieve a sovereign state?

The First World War was an inter-imperialist conflict, in which no side was supportable, in my view, but some people tried to justify it as a war to liberate Belgium (an imperialist state itself), which had been occupied by German forces.

I think that sometimes people see the rights of people in one country as taking second place to a larger issue. I suppose that that is why some people do not support the Palestinians in their fight to attain national sovereignty, and some do not support the fight of the Ukrainians to defend their national sovereignty.

The maintenance of the sovereignty of the Ukrainian state is seen as coinciding with the interests of Euro-American imperialism, whereas the establishment of sovereign Palestinian state is seen as contrary to those interests.
 
Sadly, I'll be away. But fwiw
"On 23rd April, GLAN and Al-Haq will attempt to take the government to court over its refusal to suspend arms sales to Israel. CAAT is supporting the case, and is organising a vigil outside the High Court from 8am.

Join us at 8am on 23rd April at the Royal Court of Justice, London."
 
ska invita said:
Very interesting aspect of all this
blog.paulbiggar.com

Meta and Lavender

A little-discussed detail in the Lavender AI article is that Israel is killing people based on being in the same Whatsapp group [1] as a suspected militant [2]. Where are they getting this data? Is WhatsApp sharing it? Lavender is Israel's system of "pre-crime" [3] - they use AI to
blog.paulbiggar.com blog.paulbiggar.com

little-discussed detail in the Lavender AI article is that Israel is killing people based on being in the same Whatsapp group [1] as a suspected militant [2]. Where are they getting this data? Is WhatsApp sharing it?

Lavender is Israel's system of "pre-crime" [3] - they use AI to guess who to kill in Gaza, and then bomb them when they're at home, along with their entire family. (Obscenely, they call this program "Where's Daddy").

One input to the AI is whether you're in a WhatsApp group with a suspected member of Hamas. There's a lot wrong with this - I'm in plenty of WhatsApp groups with strangers, neighbours, and in the carnage in Gaza you bet people are making groups to connect.

But the part I want to focus on is whether they get this information from Meta. Meta has been promoting WhatsApp as a "private" social network, including "end-to-end" encryption of messages.

Providing this data as input for Lavender undermines their claim that WhatsApp is a private messaging app. It is beyond obscene and makes Meta complicit in Israel's killings of "pre-crime" targets and their families, in violation of International Humanitarian Law and Meta's publicly stated commitment to human rights. No social network should be providing this sort of information about its users to countries engaging in "pre-crime".

It's important to note that already Meta is taking extensive part in the Israeli-led and US-backed genocide, including significant and well-reported suppression of content supporting Palestinian freedom, as well a new anti-"anti-zionist" policy that is used to shut down dissent of Israel's crimes

etc
Click to expand...
I suspect it's more likely they're hacking phones or even have plants in said groups than WhatsApp sharing that information.
 
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