Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Protag]

Genocide Joe is doing a fine job. World peace is just round the corner.

 

[mojo pixy]

By the way it wasn't 'pointless nitpicking', you wrote

The Palestinians kicked out of Israel during the Nakba and their descendants are still stateless refugees and their lives are still being controlled by the people who kicked them off their land in the first place.

It's not the same people, who if they were old enough to be actively involved in kicking people off land in 1948 would be in their 90s or dead by now. It was the same nation, the same movement even. But saying it was 'the people who did this' as if its the same ones, just comes across as a bit ... clumsy? Or antisemitic. (They're all just the same people hmm...) You get to choose and you can do it in the privacy of your own mind, you dont need to do it in public.

I may be on the hook for pomposity and whataboutery, but from you that's not really a massive condemnation.

 

[teqniq]

By the way it wasn't 'pointless nitpicking', you wrote



It's not the same people, who if they were old enough to be actively involved in kicking people off land in 1948 would be in their 90s or dead by now. It was the same nation, the same movement even. But saying it was 'the people who did this' as if its the same ones, just comes across as a bit ... clumsy? Or antisemitic. (They're all just the same people hmm...) You get to choose and you can do it in the privacy of your own mind, you dont need to do it in public.

I may be on the hook for pomposity and whataboutery, but from you that's not really a massive condemnation.

No indeed it is not the same people, it is often their descendants who now still hold the keys of the homes that were stolen from them.

 

[Gramsci]

If one looks at the present government of Israel it's still pursuing Zionist policies.

They aren't the same people as those Zionists ( David Ben Gurion) who ethnically cleansed Palestinians in 48.

Which would now could be classified as a war crime.

But Zionism and Israel as a Zionist state is acting now in ways that aren't that different from 48. There's a continuity in practice with new generations of Zionists taking over from those passed away

I read this particularly right wing Israeli government has been giving yet more permission for settlement building in West Bank whilst at same time attacking Gaza for example. Something different Israeli governments have been doing since 67

 

[Pickman's model]

By the way it wasn't 'pointless nitpicking', you wrote



It's not the same people, who if they were old enough to be actively involved in kicking people off land in 1948 would be in their 90s or dead by now. It was the same nation, the same movement even. But saying it was 'the people who did this' as if its the same ones, just comes across as a bit ... clumsy? Or antisemitic. (They're all just the same people hmm...) You get to choose and you can do it in the privacy of your own mind, you dont need to do it in public.

I may be on the hook for pomposity and whataboutery, but from you that's not really a massive condemnation.

Worthy successors of the pioneers of '48 then

 

[krtek a houby]

Genocide Joe is doing a fine job. World peace is just round the corner.

Clearly not, pointless Protag.

It's just business as usual for the US, they will always end up supporting Israel because that's where the votes are, traditionally.

 

[discokermit]

Clearly not, pointless Protag.

It's just business as usual for the US, they will always end up supporting Israel because that's where the votes are, traditionally.

not the votes, their interests.

 

[Gramsci]

And Palestinians have a right to resist I would have thought.

Reminded saw this few weeks ago. Young journalist, born in Gaza. Her family managed to get out. Now in Australia.

She resisted by covering what was happening to Gaza

She recounts how her grandfather would tell her about his home in what is now Israel he left in 48. They left their dog behind because they thought once fighting finished they would come back.

Never happened. Now she is in same situation as her grandfather.

The trauma of expulsion and exile due to Zionism continues down the generations.

She still hopes to return.

Is this being unreasonable? Not just accepting ones lot?

 

[krtek a houby]

not the votes, their interests.

Well, also this

 

[teqniq]

I really hope these doesn't suffer the same fate as the last boat that attempted this:

 

[Wilf]

It's not the same people, who if they were old enough to be actively involved in kicking people off land in 1948 would be in their 90s or dead by now. It was the same nation, the same movement even. But saying it was 'the people who did this' as if its the same ones, just comes across as a bit ... clumsy? Or antisemitic. (They're all just the same people hmm...) You get to choose and you can do it in the privacy of your own mind, you dont need to do it in public.

I may be on the hook for pomposity and whataboutery, but from you that's not really a massive condemnation.

I see you've played your joker.

 

[maomao]

People of course also means 'the members of a nation or community'.

 

[mojo pixy]

I see you've played your joker.

Not really, after all it isn't funny is it.

 

[agricola]

If one looks at the present government of Israel it's still pursuing Zionist policies.

They aren't the same people as those Zionists ( David Ben Gurion) who ethnically cleansed Palestinians in 48.

Which would now could be classified as a war crime.

But Zionism and Israel as a Zionist state is acting now in ways that aren't that different from 48. There's a continuity in practice with new generations of Zionists taking over from those passed away

I read this particularly right wing Israeli government has been giving yet more permission for settlement building in West Bank whilst at same time attacking Gaza for example. Something different Israeli governments have been doing since 67

TBF there are considerable differences between how previous Israeli governments would have done this and how this one (or any Netanyahu one) does this. The former would probably have, as you say, just ethnically cleansed the place probably in a matter of weeks/months - killing many and dumping the rest on the other side of a border with only the items they'd been able to carry. It is horrific but (sadly) it is usually effective to a degree.

This current lot on the other hand are much more about repeatedly degrading, almost trolling, the occupied - the humiliations of seeing the land be taken, of using a justice system that is clearly biased, of having your work destroyed, your children and homes attacked and/or locked up, of seeing the people doing this to you having better lives at your expense. People are repeatedly reminded they are worth less, but have to sit there and take it.

To me it is very reminiscent of things seen in societies that practice(d) slavery, and like them it almost always guarantees an explosion of tensions sooner rather than later.

 

[Wilf]

Not really, after all it isn't funny is it.

Neither is accusing someone of antisemitism.

 

[mojo pixy]

Neither is accusing someone of antisemitism.

Yeah there's s difference between a statement / an attitude / a person. I wonder which I was talking about, and if the words I used were any clue?

 

[two sheds]

can we please not pile in on mojo pixy? ta

 

[mojo pixy]

It's revealing in and of itself tbh

(I'm probably not helping with this little bit of snark but fuck it)

 

[Knotted]

can we please not pile in on mojo pixy? ta

All parties need to show restraint.

 

[Ax^]

No, it was a disaster of hostility, aka a war.

I don't know what's up with reading skills atm, on certain subjects it seems some posters react before they've properly read and understood the words they're reacting to.

this is the way


they argue the minor points of grammar and syntax

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I see you've played your joker.

I'm a bit thick. I didn't even twig what I was being accused of. I thought the context of my post made it pretty clear that I was referring specifically to Israelis, not the joos.

MP can fuck right off with this. It's a senstitive topic and people are twitchy. I get that. But that doesn't give carte blanche to throw around accusations lke that. Equating someone talking about Israelis with someone talking about Jews is right out of the Israeli government's playbook, of course, as is whataboutery concerning all the nasty things other people have done.

 

[klang]

I'm not against clearly and consciously differentiating between country / nation / state and people. Eg, i can see mojo's point.
Inherating a guilt or crime as 'a people' seems a dodgy concept.

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm not against clearly and consciously differentiating between country / nation / state and people. Eg, i can see mojo's point.
Inherating a guilt or crime as 'a people' seems a dodgy concept.

I also make it quite clear I'm addressing a statement that seems dodgy and not implying a broader attitude or judging an entire person. I've previously been quite explicit on this.

It's not my problem if others conflate a remark with an attitude with an individual; I don't, and I've been very clear about that.

 

[two sheds]

this is the way


they argue the minor points of grammar and syntax

on both sides though, and there's fewer of mojo pixy so it's going to feel like a pile-in to them

 

[mojo pixy]

on both sides though, and there's fewer of mojo pixy so it's going to feel like a pile-in to them

And despite being called one I'm not even a zionist; I think founding an explicitly, exclusively jewish state where it is was a mistake, I think then calling it Israel was misguided, I think it's behaved abominably since its inception and with a few momentary exceptions, it's been getting slowly worse since 1948. However, anyone who thinks it's going to be told what and how to be from outside is kidding themselves.

My long-standing view is that it's become a kind of abcess on the global human psyche - one of several, but possibly the worst because of the religious saturation it can't avoid dripping with and the fact that half the world has an emotional connection with Jerusalem. At this point I honestly have no idea what could or should be done.

Maybe I should include the above text with every post I make here because the thing is, I don't actually hate the place, or its people. Simply put, I feel like a part of me dwells there. I shan't wax lyrical but I could. And actually hating Israel is probably the last thing that will ever provoke meaningful change there (short of the kind of err explosive change that no doubt some here would absolutely support and applaud)

And once again I'm not interested in labelling people as antisemites. Fuck that, hating people doesn't bring positive change (did I just say that?) Examining what we say, and maybe sometimes why we're saying it that way, can help. It's always worth examining unconscious biases, right?

I've also pontificated on what I suspect to be racism and islamophobia that underpins much of why Palestine lacks support in The West. I think therefore it's OK to signpost and challenge what appears like antisemitism in some criticisms of Israel here too. Bearing in mind we're understandably seeing a lot of those just now.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Maybe you should look at a map and remind yourself where Iran is

Vintage supreme this now.

 

[two sheds]

And despite being called one I'm not even a zionist; I think founding an explicitly, exclusively jewish state where it is was a mistake, I think then calling it Israel was misguided, I think it's behaved abominably since its inception and with a few momentary exceptions, it's been getting slowly worse since 1948. However, anyone who thinks it's going to be told what and how to be from outside is kidding themselves.

My long-standing view is that it's become a kind of abcess on the global human psyche - one of several, but possibly the worst because of the religious saturation it can't avoid dripping with and the fact that half the world has an emotional connection with Jerusalem. At this point I honestly have no idea what could or should be done.

Maybe I should include the above text with every post I make here because the thing is, I don't actually hate the place, or its people. Simply put, I feel like a part of me dwells there. I shan't wax lyrical but I could. And actually hating Israel is probably the last thing that will ever provoke meaningful change there (short of the kind of err explosive change that no doubt some here would absolutely support and applaud)

And once again I'm not interested in labelling people as antisemites. Fuck that, hating people doesn't bring positive change (did I just say that?) Examining what we say, and maybe sometimes why we're saying it that way, can help. It's always worth examining unconscious biases, right?

I've also pontificated on what I suspect to be racism and islamophobia that underpins much of why Palestine lacks support in The West. I think therefore it's OK to signpost and challenge what appears like antisemitism in some criticisms of Israel here too. Bearing in mind we're understandably seeing a lot of those just now.

Your views are really valuable on the thread which is why you shouldn't be discouraged at all.

 

[Pickman's model]

Vintage supreme this now.

You've waited 275 pages for that? I congratulate you on your indefatigability

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You've waited 275 pages for that? I congratulate you on your indefatigability

It must be wonderful to cut folk down with an air of confidence then turn out to be wrong.

 

[Pickman's model]

It must be wonderful to cut folk down with an air of confidence then turn out to be wrong.

Yeh cos obvs the yankee planes have overflown the intervening countries to Iran, I get that. E2a it's your view then that it was the gf's presence in the med that led Iran to give the Americans 72 hours notice what they were planning.