Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Gramsci]

Gaza: How this 85-year-old Palestinian experienced two Nakbas

An eyewitness to the Nakba in 1948, octogenarian Shehdeh Taha has also been among the victims of the latest Israeli air strikes on Gaza, with his home destroyed and his family displaced

www.middleeasteye.net

Actually born in Gaza area. But saw what happened.

 

[Gramsci]

Including some gentile Russian racists

What I meant was it's common argument to say it's impractical for Palestinians to return. That this is 70s student politics as said here for example.

Israel took in a load of people from ex USSR and if they can do that then those Palestinians who want to return should be able to.

 

[Pickman's model]

What I meant was it's common argument to say it's impractical for Palestinians to return. That this is 70s student politics as said here for example.

Israel took in a load of people from ex USSR and if they can do that then those Palestinians who want to return should be able to.

Oh definitely.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

And here is what I have found. That states the opposite.

Våbeneksport til Israel kan fortsætte trods “meget restriktiv” linje – Danwatch

Udenrigsminister Lars Løkke Rasmussens strammere kurs for våbeneksport til Israel får ingen konsekvenser for eksisterende eksporttilladelser. Det er i strid med

danwatch.dk

It looks like Israel's response might just be demanding more sanctions on Iran. That's a relief if so.

It seems like the US has told them that if they choose to escalate things then they have to bear the consequences themselves. Given that many countries - Spain, Italy, Japan, Canada, Netherlands, Belgium and likely Denmark next - have already suspended arms sales to Israel they have probably calculated that being seen to be risking a wider regional war is as likely to lead to increased isolation as it is to cement US support.

here what I have found stating the exact opposite from former prime minister Lars Løkke. Weapon sales will continue unabated.

And the Danish powers know who the journalists reporting such stories are. Here is the chief editor getting pepper sprayed whilst collecting his kids. Something I have experienced myself from the Danish police. To be handcuffed and then have your eyes forced open to be pepper sprayed direct onto your eyeballs. I am not joking when I say the Nazis have power in Denmark. They know who you are and what beliefs you hold.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I don't know if this was clumsy wording or something else, but the people who took part in the war of 1948 / nakba are without doubt all dead now. Maybe one or two survive. But its different people acting now, not the same ones. I think you meant still being controlled by the state that kicked them off their land.

If we're comparing with finns, poles and germans then the palestinians made stateless in 1948 could have been adopted by Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon in a similar way as people displaced by the USSR were adopted by nearby nations. But they weren't. Those nations chose to keep Palestinians stateless for reasons of their own, in a way Finland, Germany, Poland etc did not do to the refugees they were faced with.

Yes Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon: all their fault of course that they didnt facilitate the Nakba…There was one other state involved, began with I: Italy maybe

 

[mojo pixy]

Yes Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon: all their fault of course that they didnt facilitate the Nakba…There was one other state involved, began with I: Italy maybe

I was making the point that when some disaster of nature or hostility creates huge numbers of refugees, it has been known for neighbouring countries to offer them a safe haven and essentially adopt them. In 1948 during the nakba, that didn't happen. Actually the neighbouring countries invaded the new country, thus helping in the entrenchment of the situation. The modern state of Israel may be enemy no.1 but the states of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and the KSA are no friends of the Palestinian people either.

 

[Gramsci]

I was making the point that when some disaster of nature or hostility creates huge numbers of refugees, it has been known for neighbouring countries to offer them a safe haven and essentially adopt them. In 1948 during the nakba, that didn't happen. Actually the neighbouring countries invaded the new country, thus helping in the entrenchment of the situation. The modern state of Israel may be enemy no.1 but the states of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and the KSA are no friends of the Palestinian people either.

That is where the historical argument starts.

For Ilan Pappe the ethnic cleansing in his book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine started before any "invasion" David Ben Gurion is ( as I heard him in recent talk) a war criminal according to the Jewish Israeli Pappe . It also started before official end of the Mandate.With British army looking on. Doing nothing to stop it. The history of Mandate is one of this countries more shameful episodes as an Imperial nation.

His argument from studying declassified docs is that David Ben Gurion and others had Plan Dilet.

Palestinian resistance was minimal. The best fighters had been killed or exiled during the Arab revolt. Palestinians were militarily and politically weak.

Jordan had agreement with Zionists it would get West Bank.

The Zionist paramilitaries were so successful they decided to push for more gains. They came up against the Jordanian army and in end had to back down. The point being the King of Jordan kept to agreement and only held onto the to what he had agreed to get. The West Bank. And did not push further. They were the best trained ( by British with British commanders) fighting force in area.

So for Pappe and Id say for the Palestinian American historian Rashid Khalidi 48 was not a war where Zionism was under existential threat from other Arab countries.

 

[agricola]

What I meant was it's common argument to say it's impractical for Palestinians to return. That this is 70s student politics as said here for example.

Israel took in a load of people from ex USSR and if they can do that then those Palestinians who want to return should be able to.

Absolutely. They could start that in a very safe, very fair way almost immediately by giving all over-65s the right to return together with citizenship and health coverage.

 

[mojo pixy]

That is where the historical argument starts.

For Ilan Pappe the ethnic cleansing in his book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine started before any "invasion" David Ben Gurion is ( as I heard him in recent talk) a war criminal according to the Jewish Israeli Pappe . It also started before official end of the Mandate.With British army looking on. Doing nothing to stop it. The history of Mandate is one of this countries more shameful episodes as an Imperial nation.

His argument from studying declassified docs is that David Ben Gurion and others had Plan Dilet.

Palestinian resistance was minimal. The best fighters had been killed or exiled during the Arab revolt. Palestinians were militarily and politically weak.

Jordan had agreement with Zionists it would get West Bank.

The Zionist paramilitaries were so successful they decided to push for more gains. They came up against the Jordanian army and in end had to back down. The point being the King of Jordan kept to agreement and only held onto the to what he had agreed to get. The West Bank. And did not push further. They were the best trained ( by British with British commanders) fighting force in area.

So for Pappe and Id say for the Palestinian American historian Rashid Khalidi 48 was not a war where Zionism was under existential threat from other Arab countries.

I didn't claim it was (if you check back, I was quite careful exactly what I wrote). But I do think the invasions of 1948 helped create a siege mentality among israelis, that is one of the cultural strands leading directly to where we are now.

 

[planetgeli]

I suspect Israel have been snookered by Iran.

Never underestimate a megalomaniac, especially one backed into a corner who has lots of far right support for a retaliation against a bigger enemy than the one they're currently fighting.

But yeah, we'll see.

 

[teqniq]

Hmmm yes, well Netanyahu and the far-right headbangers would love to have a go but the reality is they know they can't do a great deal without the US to back them up and as has already been discussed the US is not at all keen on the idea. This may be at least part of the reason why:



From:

 

[Gramsci]

I didn't claim it was (if you check back, I was quite careful exactly what I wrote). But I do think the invasions of 1948 helped create a siege mentality among israelis, that is one of the cultural strands leading directly to where we are now.

Siege mentality maybe. A cultural strand but lets be clear imo not based on historical fact.

And apart from the Jordanian army. Who did not push further despite knowing what was happening to other Palestinian villages the intervention by other Arab states was to little to late to seriously save other Palestinian villages.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Where's the line between 'should', which of course is subjective, and 'reality on the ground'?

What of Kerelia - the annexation of Finnish territory by the Soviet Union? 400k Finns left/deported into the rest of Finland, with a new Russian population transported to replace them - in Finland, it's a dead issue. There are people who campaign for the return of Kerelia to Finland, but there are probably more Brits who are active Jacobites....

What of Poland, Germany and Belarus? Countries and populations who were shoved 100 miles westwards at the end of WW2 by the Soviet Union - I know a woman who lives in western Poland who's house was once lived in by Germans - German newspapers in the loft, pipework made in Germany, Polish road signs bolted onto the original German ones. she found a picture online with a German family playing in her front garden....

What of Crimea or other bits of Ukraine - they are unlikely to ever be part of Ukraine any time soon - in some bits the population has left, in some parts the Ukrainian population remains, 'Russofied' with compulsory military service, passports, and the Ukrainian language driven underground...?

Kaliningrad/Konigsberg?

This isn't 'suck it up, cupcake', or meh, it's more 'if you get to choose the 3rd century as the start of history, why don't others get to chose 1947, or 1945, or 2014?'.

It's a can of shitty worms.

Karelia, Kaliningrad, Poland, Belarus - all done and dusted, whatever the rights and wrongs of the past. With very few exceptions there are no Finns left on the Russian side of the Finnish border, no Germans or Poles in Kaliningrad, no Poles in Belarus, no Belarusians in Poland.
But Crimea and Ukraine still work in progress. Palestine even more so.
So the facts on the ground dictate the 'start of history'. If Israel had conquered the West Bank, the Golan Heights and Gaza in 1947, expelled or killed all the Palestinians, and from the current state of Israel as well, then the conflict might be over by now. But they couldn't and didn't.
Times have also changed. At the end of WW2 most people in the UK would have known little about what was happening in Karelia, or where it was even. Now it's on our tellys whenever something happens.

 

[Gramsci]

On the whataboutery about population movements after WW2 in Europe and what happened in Palestine.

Yes Poles

Ethnically cleansed by Ukrainian fascists in and after WW2. I know a Pole whose grandparents just survived this who got rehoused from Ukraine to the new Western Poland taken from Germans

I also know an ethnic German who is Czech. After WW2 most Czech Germans were kicked out by Czechs in the settling of scores after WW2. Her village survived.

I used to use a coffee bar where they all worked here.. For them the fall of USSR and for joining the EU meant that for them , whatever happened in past , they were now all equal citizens in EU. With all same rights and right to move around different countries in EU. They might be German Czechs/ Hungarian Slovaks etc.

For east Europeans I know that's been a solution to there brutal history of 20th C. From there point of view. I don't want to get into argument here about EU. I'm saying from what I know from talking to them.

(That does leave out the rich Jewish history of Eastern Europe which hangs like a shadow across it now.)

The point being there can be a solution to these kinds of issues.

As Tony Judt said years back with Israel its still stuck in old 19c nationalism

In Israel unlike Europe a solution where all can feel equal simply has not happened.

 

[mojo pixy]

Siege mentality maybe. A cultural strand but lets be clear imo not based on historical fact.

What isn't? During May and June 1948 there were military incursions into Israel/mandate Palestine. It may not have in fact posed an existential threat to Israel but at the time it didn't feel that way to a lot of people (many of whom were fresh from the shoah and ww2)

Subsequently to that, the rest of the war was basically a land-grab by Israel, with nearly everyone on that land being (killed or) made to leave.

 

[Raheem]

Karelia, Kaliningrad, Poland, Belarus - all done and dusted, whatever the rights and wrongs of the past.

If you're German and your grandparents lived in Gdansk, you can move there tomorrow, provided you can afford the ticket. Same goes for Kaliningrad, if you're German and very odd.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I was making the point that when some disaster of nature or hostility creates huge numbers of refugees, it has been known for neighbouring countries to offer them a safe haven and essentially adopt them. In 1948 during the nakba, that didn't happen. Actually the neighbouring countries invaded the new country, thus helping in the entrenchment of the situation. The modern state of Israel may be enemy no.1 but the states of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and the KSA are no friends of the Palestinian people either.

I agree with that last sentence certainly.

 

[Rimbaud]

What is your source for Denmark halting weapon sales? It would be lovely if true but despite extensive civil disobedience the rhetoric of the idiots in power has not changed. Plus they are super butthurt today as they have lost their symbol to capitalism to a fire. And they have no one to blame but a cigarette

Which countries supply Israel with arms and why is Biden reluctant to stop?

Pressure on Israel’s allies to halt the flow of arms has reached a boiling point – why is the US still sending and have any countries stopped?

www.theguardian.com

"In Denmark, a court case is pending which could result in the government having to suspend the export of F-35 fighter jet parts to the US, because it sells the finished jets to Israel. "

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I was making the point that when some disaster of nature or hostility creates huge numbers of refugees, it has been known for neighbouring countries to offer them a safe haven and essentially adopt them. In 1948 during the nakba, that didn't happen. Actually the neighbouring countries invaded the new country, thus helping in the entrenchment of the situation. The modern state of Israel may be enemy no.1 but the states of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and the KSA are no friends of the Palestinian people either.

Totally true. Doesn't excuse anything Israel has done or is doing.

But the Nakba was not some disaster of nature. That point is a shit one.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Which countries supply Israel with arms and why is Biden reluctant to stop?

Pressure on Israel’s allies to halt the flow of arms has reached a boiling point – why is the US still sending and have any countries stopped?

www.theguardian.com

"In Denmark, a court case is pending which could result in the government having to suspend the export of F-35 fighter jet parts to the US, because it sells the finished jets to Israel. "

That’s just shitty reporting. Who is bringing this court case? And against whom?
Also, Denmark is the main arms trafficker for the US with the contracts that Maersk has with the US military.

 

[Rimbaud]

That’s just shitty reporting. Who is bringing this court case? And against whom?
Also, Denmark is the main arms trafficker for the US with the contracts that Maersk has with the US military.

I don't know, but I just googled and there seems to be more detail here:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ngos-sue-denmark-end-arms-export-israel-2024-03-12/

 

[mojo pixy]

But the Nakba was not some disaster of nature. That point is a shit one.

No, it was a disaster of hostility, aka a war.

I don't know what's up with reading skills atm, on certain subjects it seems some posters react before they've properly read and understood the words they're reacting to.

 

[Pickman's model]

No, it was a disaster of hostility, aka a war.

I don't know what's up with reading skills atm, on certain subjects it seems some posters react before they've properly read and understood the words they're reacting to.

This is urban after all

 

[Mezzer]

No, it was a disaster of hostility, aka a war.

I don't know what's up with reading skills atm, on certain subjects it seems some posters react before they've properly read and understood the words they're reacting to.

LBJ's point is an understandable one, as that's what your post read like. You might not have intended it to, but that's how it came across.

 

[mojo pixy]

LBJ's point is an understandable one, as that's what your post read like. You might not have intended it to, but that's how it came across.

Yeah as I said. More reading and less mindless reacting but whatever. Internet, 2024.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

I don't know, but I just googled and there seems to be more detail here:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ngos-sue-denmark-end-arms-export-israel-2024-03-12/

i hope they succeed

I don't know, but I just googled and there seems to be more detail here:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ngos-sue-denmark-end-arms-export-israel-2024-03-12/

i recall some instagram posts from activist groups about a month ago. Radio silence from the Danish media, with the likely exception of Danwatch and Information (the latter to which I don’t hold a subscription).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No, it was a disaster of hostility, aka a war.

I don't know what's up with reading skills atm, on certain subjects it seems some posters react before they've properly read and understood the words they're reacting to.

Your posts on this subject come across as whataboutery. Whatabout the treatment of Palestinians by other countries? Whatabout other situations in which refugees have been created?

And you're the one who pointlessly nitpicked my post about saying 'people' instead of 'states'. Meanwhile, this post makes you sound like a pompous arse.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Revealed: Israel has sped up settlement-building in East Jerusalem since Gaza war began

Exclusive: Government ministries and offices behind most contentious of projects, which will create thousands of housing units

www.theguardian.com

But Israel must have our full support.

 

[Knotted]

The conversation about Arab states treatment of Palestinian refugees is a bit odd if only because each state has done very different things. It's particularly odd to accuse Jordan of failing to integrate their refugees given that the majority have been given Jordanian citizenship and are thus deprived of their refugee status and the right of return.

 

[mojo pixy]

Your posts on this subject come across as whataboutery. Whatabout the treatment of Palestinians by other countries? Whatabout other situations in which refugees have been created?

And you're the one who pointlessly nitpicked my post about saying 'people' instead of 'states'. Meanwhile, this post makes you sound like a pompous arse.

Thanks for your input.