Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[kebabking]

...Jews ceased to be a majority in Palestine probably at some point in the 3rd century - a staggeringly obvious point that is almost lost in official discourses in Britain and beyond. The history of populations in Palestine is obviously complex, but there is nothing in there that should let slip from the view that these were long term Palestinian lands.

Where's the line between 'should', which of course is subjective, and 'reality on the ground'?

What of Kerelia - the annexation of Finnish territory by the Soviet Union? 400k Finns left/deported into the rest of Finland, with a new Russian population transported to replace them - in Finland, it's a dead issue. There are people who campaign for the return of Kerelia to Finland, but there are probably more Brits who are active Jacobites....

What of Poland, Germany and Belarus? Countries and populations who were shoved 100 miles westwards at the end of WW2 by the Soviet Union - I know a woman who lives in western Poland who's house was once lived in by Germans - German newspapers in the loft, pipework made in Germany, Polish road signs bolted onto the original German ones. she found a picture online with a German family playing in her front garden....

What of Crimea or other bits of Ukraine - they are unlikely to ever be part of Ukraine any time soon - in some bits the population has left, in some parts the Ukrainian population remains, 'Russofied' with compulsory military service, passports, and the Ukrainian language driven underground...?

Kaliningrad/Konigsberg?

This isn't 'suck it up, cupcake', or meh, it's more 'if you get to choose the 3rd century as the start of history, why don't others get to chose 1947, or 1945, or 2014?'.

It's a can of shitty worms.

 

[Pickman's model]

iran didnt even use their best missiles, apparently.

You wouldn't on a reconnaissance

 

[Pickman's model]

Where's the line between 'should', which of course is subjective, and 'reality on the ground'?

What of Kerelia - the annexation of Finnish territory by the Soviet Union? 400k Finns left/deported into the rest of Finland, with a new Russian population transported to replace them - in Finland, it's a dead issue. There are people who campaign for the return of Kerelia to Finland, but there are probably more Brits who are active Jacobites....

What of Poland, Germany and Belarus? Countries and populations who were shoved 100 miles westwards at the end of WW2 by the Soviet Union - I know a woman who lives in western Poland who's house was once lived in by Germans - German newspapers in the loft, pipework made in Germany, Polish road signs bolted onto the original German ones. she found a picture online with a German family playing in her front garden....

What of Crimea or other bits of Ukraine - they are unlikely to ever be part of Ukraine any time soon - in some bits the population has left, in some parts the Ukrainian population remains, 'Russofied' with compulsory military service, passports, and the Ukrainian language driven underground...?

Kaliningrad/Konigsberg?

This isn't 'suck it up, cupcake', or meh, it's more 'if you get to choose the 3rd century as the start of history, why don't others get to chose 1947, or 1945, or 2014?'.

It's a can of shitty worms.

What about Ireland? But whataboutery doesn't advance matters much really.

 

[johnwesley]

A grim watch from Australia's ABC's excellent Four Corners on Israeli torture of Palestinian children. Horrifying stuff.

 

[kebabking]

What about Ireland? But whataboutery doesn't advance matters much really.

Depends - I think it adds context, but I don't think there's a blanket solution that fits every circumstance.

For me, on Israel-Palestine, do I see a solution where

a) there's enough land/water for the current Israeli population, and the current Palestinian population in Gaza and the west bank - and whatever proportion of the Palestinian diaspora in Lebanon, Jordan etc.. who wish to return - to live decent lives? No, I don't.

b) even if I did, do I see Israel giving up enough of Israel proper to allow the population of the Gaza strip to have a viable life - agriculture, housing etc..? No, I don't.

c) do I see, even if either of the above were managed, Israelis and Palestinians living along side each other in some degree of peace/security? Not really...

So, unless anyone seriously disagrees with the above, it's obvious that a new, better plan is required, rather than the tired, irrelevant slogans of 1970's student unions....

 

[teqniq]

Just when you thought the IDF couldn't stoop any lower:

 

[Pickman's model]

Depends - I think it adds context, but I don't think there's a blanket solution that fits every circumstance.

For me, on Israel-Palestine, do I see a solution where

a) there's enough land/water for the current Israeli population, and the current Palestinian population in Gaza and the west bank - and whatever proportion of the Palestinian diaspora in Lebanon, Jordan etc.. who wish to return - to live decent lives? No, I don't.

b) even if I did, do I see Israel giving up enough of Israel proper to allow the population of the Gaza strip to have a viable life - agriculture, housing etc..? No, I don't.

c) do I see, even if either of the above were managed, Israelis and Palestinians living along side each other in some degree of peace/security? Not really...

So, unless anyone seriously disagrees with the above, it's obvious that a new, better plan is required, rather than the tired, irrelevant slogans of 1970's student unions....

where do you find the repository of 1970s student union slogans? there's a ready-made solution, which has the advantage of improving the zionists' compliance with international law, namely security council resolution 242. that has nothing to do with student unions, removes much of the causes of conflict in the region and would improve israel's international image no end.

would the current leadership of israel go for it? no. but if the alternative is a regional conflict which may expand further then perhaps it's time for israel's sponsors and enablers to lay down the law at last and say no more weapons, no more money, and sanctions all round on nay-sayers in the knesset.

 

[kebabking]

...would the current leadership of israel go for it? no. but if the alternative is a regional conflict which may expand further then perhaps it's time for israel's sponsors and enablers to lay down the law at last and say no more weapons, no more money, and sanctions all round on nay-sayers in the knesset.

I don't think the people of Israel would vote for it - do you believe in coercing them?

I note you've not given a view on whether you think it's possible for all those people to live decent lives in that one place - which is where the student union stuff comes from- you're more interested in the principle than the practicality.

As long as it's your principle, obviously....

 

[lazythursday]

I don't think the people of Israel would vote for it - do you believe in coercing them?

In the examples that you listed of forced population transfers that are now settled history, I don't think anyone asked either the old or new populations for their consent.

I don't think there's a route to a happy consensus. Whatever the future, some section of the population of Israel or Palestine is going to be coerced into living with it.

 

[Knotted]

Depends - I think it adds context, but I don't think there's a blanket solution that fits every circumstance.

For me, on Israel-Palestine, do I see a solution where

a) there's enough land/water for the current Israeli population, and the current Palestinian population in Gaza and the west bank - and whatever proportion of the Palestinian diaspora in Lebanon, Jordan etc.. who wish to return - to live decent lives? No, I don't.

b) even if I did, do I see Israel giving up enough of Israel proper to allow the population of the Gaza strip to have a viable life - agriculture, housing etc..? No, I don't.

c) do I see, even if either of the above were managed, Israelis and Palestinians living along side each other in some degree of peace/security? Not really...

So, unless anyone seriously disagrees with the above, it's obvious that a new, better plan is required, rather than the tired, irrelevant slogans of 1970's student unions....

Where does your point a) come from?

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't think the people of Israel would vote for it - do you believe in coercing them?

I note you've not given a view on whether you think it's possible for all those people to live decent lives in that one place - which is where the student union stuff comes from- you're more interested in the principle than the practicality.

As long as it's your principle, obviously....

is it possible? of course. is it likely - will the zionist spartans treat the palestinian helots as equals? well, there's the problem. but you cannot go on indefinitely with the zionists treating the palestinians as sub- or non-human without damaging both the zionists themselves and the palestinians.

the population densities of israel, gaza and the west bank are in the region of 416, 5,749 and 564 per sq km respectively (List of countries and dependencies by population density - Wikipedia). the west bank figure would rather drop and that of israel rise somewhat if the settlers withdrew.

if restrictions on movement lifted doubtless many people in the gaza strip would move to the west bank or emigrate so i suspect that great density of people would reduce.

but this is an off the peg plan and so would need some tweaking to be really suitable for how things are sixty years down the line. e2a: yeh you're right the gaza strip is in a very parlous state - but if the zionists could make the desert bloom i'm sure with the right encouragement they could do something to make gaza habitable again.

e2a2: as for coercion i think that if the americans and so on have to use a bit of tough love to help their zionist allies then it's perhaps past due

 

[Aladdin]

One image that is not so horrific but shows Gazan resilience...

 

[discokermit]

he's never gonna get that through an mot.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Where's the line between 'should', which of course is subjective, and 'reality on the ground'?

What of Kerelia - the annexation of Finnish territory by the Soviet Union? 400k Finns left/deported into the rest of Finland, with a new Russian population transported to replace them - in Finland, it's a dead issue. There are people who campaign for the return of Kerelia to Finland, but there are probably more Brits who are active Jacobites....

What of Poland, Germany and Belarus? Countries and populations who were shoved 100 miles westwards at the end of WW2 by the Soviet Union - I know a woman who lives in western Poland who's house was once lived in by Germans - German newspapers in the loft, pipework made in Germany, Polish road signs bolted onto the original German ones. she found a picture online with a German family playing in her front garden....

What of Crimea or other bits of Ukraine - they are unlikely to ever be part of Ukraine any time soon - in some bits the population has left, in some parts the Ukrainian population remains, 'Russofied' with compulsory military service, passports, and the Ukrainian language driven underground...?

Kaliningrad/Konigsberg?

This isn't 'suck it up, cupcake', or meh, it's more 'if you get to choose the 3rd century as the start of history, why don't others get to chose 1947, or 1945, or 2014?'.

It's a can of shitty worms.

Those displaced Finns and Germans and their descendants are not now stateless refugees. The Palestinians kicked out of Israel during the Nakba and their descendants are still stateless refugees and their lives are still being controlled by the people who kicked them off their land in the first place.

 

[Knotted]

Those displaced Finns and Germans and their descendants are not now stateless refugees. The Palestinians kicked out of Israel during the Nakba and their descendants are still stateless refugees and their lives are still being controlled by the people who kicked them off their land in the first place.

This. It's such a basic point.

Human Rights Watch did a good general overview of the right of return some years ago.

Right to Return - Human Rights Watch Policy Page

 

[mojo pixy]

Those displaced Finns and Germans and their descendants are not now stateless refugees. The Palestinians kicked out of Israel during the Nakba and their descendants are still stateless refugees and their lives are still being controlled by the people who kicked them off their land in the first place.

I don't know if this was clumsy wording or something else, but the people who took part in the war of 1948 / nakba are without doubt all dead now. Maybe one or two survive. But its different people acting now, not the same ones. I think you meant still being controlled by the state that kicked them off their land.

If we're comparing with finns, poles and germans then the palestinians made stateless in 1948 could have been adopted by Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon in a similar way as people displaced by the USSR were adopted by nearby nations. But they weren't. Those nations chose to keep Palestinians stateless for reasons of their own, in a way Finland, Germany, Poland etc did not do to the refugees they were faced with.

 

[Wilf]

Where's the line between 'should', which of course is subjective, and 'reality on the ground'?

What of Kerelia - the annexation of Finnish territory by the Soviet Union? 400k Finns left/deported into the rest of Finland, with a new Russian population transported to replace them - in Finland, it's a dead issue. There are people who campaign for the return of Kerelia to Finland, but there are probably more Brits who are active Jacobites....

What of Poland, Germany and Belarus? Countries and populations who were shoved 100 miles westwards at the end of WW2 by the Soviet Union - I know a woman who lives in western Poland who's house was once lived in by Germans - German newspapers in the loft, pipework made in Germany, Polish road signs bolted onto the original German ones. she found a picture online with a German family playing in her front garden....

What of Crimea or other bits of Ukraine - they are unlikely to ever be part of Ukraine any time soon - in some bits the population has left, in some parts the Ukrainian population remains, 'Russofied' with compulsory military service, passports, and the Ukrainian language driven underground...?

Kaliningrad/Konigsberg?

This isn't 'suck it up, cupcake', or meh, it's more 'if you get to choose the 3rd century as the start of history, why don't others get to chose 1947, or 1945, or 2014?'.

It's a can of shitty worms.

Very quick answer as I'm just off out of the house. I think that's a (sophisticated) dose of whataboutery. Yes, certainly, reality on the ground, I'm not calling for the elimination of the state of Israel or anything like that. Not that, to state the obvious, that is likely to happen in pretty much any realistic scenario. My point was simply about how the state of Israel has become lodged in western discourses as a state that exists unproblematically and by extension any questioning the legitimacy of the foundation of Israel is beyond the pale (Irish puns probably unintentional). How unquestioning support for Israel has become a zero sum game, from which the Palestinians lose. Yes, certainly, populations in Palestine have moved dramatically over the centuries, with forced movements aplenty. But to get to it, what happened in 1947 is more significant than what happened in the 3rd Century. Or, should be.

Jewish people, in the main, won't agree. But it's an ideological and power battle that Israel is winning. Ultimately, that's all I'm pointing to.

 

[hash tag]

I have read that if necessary Israel will respond. This is how people should respond

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't know if this was clumsy wording or something else, but the people who took part in the war of 1948 / nakba are without doubt all dead now. Maybe one or two survive. But its different people acting now, not the same ones. I think you meant still being controlled by the state that kicked them off their land.

If we're comparing with finns, poles and germans then the palestinians made stateless in 1948 could have been adopted by Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon in a similar way as people displaced by the USSR were adopted by nearby nations. But they weren't. Those nations chose to keep Palestinians stateless for reasons of their own, in a way Finland, Germany, Poland etc did not do to the refugees they were faced with.

Some are still alive. And their descendants are classified as refugees by UN definitions. You can inherit refugee status, sadly. Fair enough to correct to the 'state' rather than 'people'. Happy to change that for accuracy.

And yeah, you're right that nobody wanted the Palestinians. Doesn't change what was done to create Israel nor how the Palestinians have been treated by the Israeli state ever since.

 

[krtek a houby]

It has to be said

Middle East crisis live: Israel violated international law with attack on Iranian diplomatic building in Syria, says UN Middle East crisis live: Israel violated international law with attack on Iranian diplomatic building in Syria, says UN

 

[barlimo]

It has to be said

Middle East crisis live: Israel violated international law with attack on Iranian diplomatic building in Syria, says UN Middle East crisis live: Israel violated international law with attack on Iranian diplomatic building in Syria, says UN

Normal double standards at work here as I haven't heard one word of condemnation about that strike and wonder what would have been said if the Russians had done something similar.

 

[hash tag]

It has to be said

Middle East crisis live: Israel violated international law with attack on Iranian diplomatic building in Syria, says UN Middle East crisis live: Israel violated international law with attack on Iranian diplomatic building in Syria, says UN

But we have heard this, about all sides, time and time again. Words are said and "we" still support them.

 

[Rimbaud]

It looks like Israel's response might just be demanding more sanctions on Iran. That's a relief if so.

It seems like the US has told them that if they choose to escalate things then they have to bear the consequences themselves. Given that many countries - Spain, Italy, Japan, Canada, Netherlands, Belgium and likely Denmark next - have already suspended arms sales to Israel they have probably calculated that being seen to be risking a wider regional war is as likely to lead to increased isolation as it is to cement US support.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

It looks like Israel's response might just be demanding more sanctions on Iran. That's a relief if so.

It seems like the US has told them that if they choose to escalate things then they have to bear the consequences themselves. Given that many countries - Spain, Italy, Japan, Canada, Netherlands, Belgium and likely Denmark next - have already suspended arms sales to Israel they have probably calculated that being seen to be risking a wider regional war is as likely to lead to increased isolation as it is to cement US support.

What is your source for Denmark halting weapon sales? It would be lovely if true but despite extensive civil disobedience the rhetoric of the idiots in power has not changed. Plus they are super butthurt today as they have lost their symbol to capitalism to a fire. And they have no one to blame but a cigarette

 

[Gramsci]

I don't know if this was clumsy wording or something else, but the people who took part in the war of 1948 / nakba are without doubt all dead now. Maybe one or two survive. But its different people acting now, not the same ones. I think you meant still being controlled by the state that kicked them off their land.

One got killed in recent bombing of Gaza. Read a few reports of people in Gaza who were old enough to have been part of Nakba and now have lost their homes again.

 

[planetgeli]

It looks like Israel's response might just be demanding more sanctions on Iran. That's a relief if so.

Seems a tad optimistic. What's your workings?

 

[Gramsci]

This was a detailed plan for return.

Argues their is space

I maintain here that there is no demographic, geographical, legal, logistic or economic reason to justify the denial of the refugees’ right to return home .

Palestine Land Society

Palestine Land Society is an independent non-profit scholarly society dedicated towards research and information-gathering on Palestine, the land and its people.

www.plands.org

 

[Gramsci]

After all Israel took in a lot of people from former USSR

 

[Pickman's model]

After all Israel took in a lot of people from former USSR

Including some gentile Russian racists

 

[Raheem]

Seems a tad optimistic. What's your workings?

I suspect Israel have been snookered by Iran. The attack Iran launched was tiny compared to what they are capable of. Israel had probably hoped to engage them in a game of symbolic tit-for-tat, but Iran has escalated to one rung below a proper confrontation, which Israel cannot risk.

I guess we'll see, but I think it's most likely that a direct Israeli response won't emerge.

Unfortunately, I think it just makes a war with Hezbollah more likely as an alternative.