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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

likesfish said:

banning UK arms sales isn't going to effect the war one way or another doesnt even really "send a message" that israels going to listen to at the moment they dont care and hamas is still up for a fight to the last dead civillian and the idf
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Just to clarify you would not be against stopping by this government of arms supplies to Israel if the legal advice is that IDF/ Israeli prosecution of this war is leading to risk that arms from this country are being used in contravention of IHL.

This isn't just about sending a message to Israel it's about this country following the guidelines it's set up to agree to arms licenses.

Whether it sends a message or not is technically not the point.
 
Gramsci said:
Just to clarify you would not be against stopping by this government of arms supplies to Israel if the legal advice is that IDF/ Israeli prosecution of this war is leading to risk that arms from this country are being used in contravention of IHL.

This isn't just about sending a message to Israel it's about this country following the guidelines it's set up to agree to arms licenses.

Whether it sends a message or not is technically not the point.
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tbf if the lawyers say it breaks the guidelines then it should be stopped
 
Cloo said:
I've seen a concerning uptick this week in posts on social media with a distinctly antisemitic conspiracy feel. One was on an African news type account and about 'Zionist' billionaire Gilbert Bigio who is based in Haiti and for sure the man sounds like a corrupt piece of shit, but the whole tone was very much 'Jews exploit POC' and like it was aiming to sow distrust between POC in general and Jewish people.
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This predates the present conflict in Gaza. It's been an issue simmering under the surface for years. Around who was most oppressed and who gets more attention.

Your post reminded that Paul Gilroy discusses some of this in his book the Black Atlantic.

I do need to go back and read that chapter on it again.

Found an article using it here:

vashtimedia.com

Beyond Black and Jewish nationhood

Considering Paul Gilroy’s radical Jewish influences.
vashtimedia.com vashtimedia.com

He argues that whilst different the experience of Black people ( transatlantic slavery) and Jewish people ( the Holocaust) of racism both largely stem from a European society. That whilst different solidarity can be built.


Gilroy provides a necessary counterweight to a still-too-common discussion pitting traumatic histories against one another in a reductive and damaging hierarchy. Yet by resisting the assumption that communal trauma has to be considered in isolation within each affected community, he shows how solidarity between marginalised groups can be built, through an empathetic understanding of the fact that distinct events can produce overlapping experiences.
 
Yes, I think black and Jewish solidarity is very important, and it makes me sad and angry that some people work hard at dividing us.

It's interesting to think that the Jews are a group who I would say have, in Western Europe at least, moved beyond being systemically oppressed in the way POC still are, but still facing prejudice and hatred. But I still think we absolutely have a common cause with marginalised groups on account of our history.
 
teqniq said:
They take the piss all the time. Because they can. Because they know that they can get away with it. But hopefully their excuses are running out of road.
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I'd like to think so but am sceptical.

What I see happening in Gaza reminds me of what I've read of what happened in 48.

There are differences. Like this in Gaza is being done under Right Zionist government. Whilst 48 was done largely by Zionist Labour. Who ran Israel from then until late 70s.

The way both wings of Zionism treat Palestinians and the way they got away with it have parallels

This time its being done under full glare of publicity.

The destruction of Palestinian homes happened in 48 and now in Gaza.

The attempt to eliminate any Palestinian presence from this land is the same under right Zionism as Labour Zionism.

I could go on. The problem that causes this conflict is Zionism.
 
teqniq said:
Whilst this may be true on one level, it's the principle that is at issue here. But even so parts are manufactured here that go into planes, missiles and drones that are then sold to Israel.
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I think it's more than just principle. There's not much the UK government can do and even less those of us who just live here. Stopping arms sales won't stop this, neither will marching, blockading arms companies or boycotting Israeli goods. But you use what leverage you have, and If enough other people are doing that, in this case all over the world, then it builds momentum and can contribute to change. It's rare that something 'works' on its own, but direct action puts pressure on the government and financial pressure on capital to roll back arm sales. A ban on arms sales would be a boost for those in the US agitating for the same thing there. Costing capitalists money leads to backroom compromises of which we will never have knowledge. Stopping arms sales or taking action to that end is not nothing, small things can lead to bigger ones, tipping points can be unexpected, maximising leverage no matter how small is strategically the right thing to do as well as morally.

think I ended up replying to likesfish more than you there.
 
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www.aljazeera.com

Israel’s Netanyahu promises to ‘act immediately’ to close Al Jazeera

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu promises to use new law to shutter local operations of Al Jazeera.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com

When Netanyahu says stop operations in the country does he mean in the occupied territories as well?

I wonder how in practise he is going to do this.

Also I watch Al Jazeera on YouTube so how is stopping people in Israel and occupied territories watching it going to work?

See even Biden administration have already said action against Al Jazeera is "concerning"

I find Al Jazeera programmes like Inside Story and also commentators like Marwan Bishara very good.

I'm sure its unpalatable to Israel. But Al Jazeera represents the concerns of the people in the region. And has provided full coverage.

Al Jazeera - as most people in region think- regards Zionism as taking land off Palestinians/ That the West Bank/ Jerusalem/ Gaza are occupied territories. All standard mainstream views of people in middle east
 
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Gramsci said:
www.aljazeera.com

Israel’s Netanyahu promises to ‘act immediately’ to close Al Jazeera

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu promises to use new law to shutter local operations of Al Jazeera.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com

When Netanyahu says stop operations in the country does he mean in the occupied territories as well?

I wonder how in practise he is going to do this.

Also I watch Al Jazeera on YouTube so how is stopping people in Israel and occupied territories going to work?
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Close down offices, refuse entry to the country to AJ employees. That kind of thing, I would think.

This move doesn't surprise me in the slightest tbh. Only surprise is it took them this long.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Close down offices, refuse entry to the country to AJ employees. That kind of thing, I would think.

This move doesn't surprise me in the slightest tbh. Only surprise is it took them this long.
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So stopping them in the occupied territories as well? I'm assuming Netanyahu regards occupied territories as part of Israel but not clear if the law passed allows that. And Al Jazeera could contest it.
 
Gramsci said:
So stopping them in the occupied territories as well? I'm assuming Netanyahu regards occupied territories as part of Israel but not clear if the law passed allows that. And Al Jazeera could contest it.
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I guess they don't allow anyone from AJ into the occupied territories via Israel. Maybe those already there continue to broadcast? Israel can't stop them, or should I say they've been trying to stop them for months (by killing them) and failed.
 
Raheem said:
I doubt that is really possible.
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In sense that government of this country and US will never do this and also will provide Israel with support Id agree its not possible.

They will provide Israel with support whatever it does and at same time say they are "concerned"
 
Here is Netanyahu on the new law.



Al Jazeera harmed Israel's security, actively participated in the October 7 massacre, and incited against IDF soldiers. It is time to remove the shofar of Hamas from our country.

The terrorist channel Al Jazeera will no longer broadcast from Israel. I intend to act immediately in accordance with the new law to stop the channel's activity.

I welcome the law promoted by Communications Minister Shlomo Karai with the support of coalition members led by coalition chairman Ofir Katz.
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‏
Google translation.

This is bonkers. People like him are running Israel
 
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This person on Twitter coincidentally has had thoughts on Israel and pariah states:

'An important aspect of Israel's conduct - and Biden's acquiescence to it - that has gone largely unreported:Israel is engaged in a deliberate and systematic effort to destroy existing laws and norms around warfare.Even during wartime, embassies are off-limits. Israel just bombed an Iranian diplomatic compound in Damascus.Bombing hospitals is a war crime. Israel has bombed EVERY hospital in Gaza. It has even assassinated patients inside hospitals.The ICJ just obligated Israel to allow the delivery of humanitarian aid to Gaza. Israel actively prevents aid from coming in.Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare is prohibited under international humanitarian law. Israel has deliberately created a famine in Gaza.Indiscriminate bombings are illegal under international humanitarian law. Biden himself admits that Israel is bombing Gaza indiscriminately.And the list goes on.Presuming that Israel simply is breaking international law as part of the war but with no larger intent no longer holds IMO. Rather, Israel is seeking to either destroy these norms or create a new normal in which it - much like the US - will be untouchable above these laws and norms.This is the exact type of conduct that usually prompts the US to label a country a pariah or rogue state. The US accuses such states of seeking to destroy the "Rules Based Order." But so far, Biden has acquiesced to Israel's conduct in this area as well as all other aspects of Israel's slaughter in Gaza.'

Source
 
Yes Rules Based Order is applied selectively.

One thing about this and the contrast with how the Ukraine / Russia conflict has been dealt with is that it has not gone un remarked that there is a double standard.

This is undermining the concept of an international rules based order.
 
tim said:
The USA didn't become a pariah state after they bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. Both Israel and Iran still have their friends on the international stage whatever crimes they commit.
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The USA didn't intentionally bomb the Chinese Embassy, the then President (Clinton) made a public and private apology for the bombing and paid compensation to the Chinese state and to the families of those killed.
 
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