Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Gramsci]

Local Labour Cllr suspended for voting locally for a ceasefire put this up.

This leading light in the Labour party having trouble answering straightforward question.

Answer is that Labour would sell arms to its ally.

Israel is an ally- what does UK get in return?

 

[Pickman's model]

Been reading more of Hollow Lands by the Israeli architect Eyal Weissmann

Written in 2007 its an architects view of the occupation.

The chapter read today is about the IDF. Modelling and remaking the urban environment. Ex military like Sharon ( planning location of settlements )and also IDf themselves are part of this.

Back when he wrote the book there was a move to pacification rather than conflict.

Or rather that was the theory.

The Israeli army developed new tactics to fight in urban environment.

Using post modern theory looked at fighting a non conventional war. Heavily defended refugee camps were made up of narrow alleys that could be well defending by lightly armed guerilla army. So instead of attacking in obvious way IDF "walked through the wall". Treating the architectural space in radical way- gained from IDF military advisors studying postmodern architectural theory. So instead of going through alleyways where they could be attacked easily they blow holes in peoples housing. Burrowing through and making a new architectural space. Second the command structure would be decentralised allowing groups of IDF to "swarm". Act more like insects - finding a way where knowledge was not top down. They borrowed from radical post modern theory not for its radical goals but its critique of structure and top down management.

( To add my knowledge of this kind of theory is very sketchy. So taking Eyal word for this. He does say he is not criticising the theory. But he does say this could be seen as example of what Marcuse ( Frankfurt Marxist) said about how in late capitalism all radical opposition ideas are co opted)

It was part of the idea from the more liberal end of IDF. Who saw a peace process with withdrawal of IDF troops from Palestinian areas. But with right of IDF to enter (swarm) in and out for security reasons. This was part of a particular idea of the two state solution. Which as Eyal Weissmann points out was very much less than a real state for Palestinians. He introduces idea of vertical apartheid. Where ground level might have some Palestinian self government but the sky ( fighter aircraft) and most of resources under ground ( water) would still be under Israeli control.

Apart from fact Palestinian fighters adapted to these new tactics what was found in end was that old school crushing force was still needed. Armoured bulldozers for example

However it did mean that for IDF the difference between civilian space and fighters space was broken down. Previously some refugee camps had been no go areas.

I have found something by him on recent Gaza. But not watched that yet.

Seems to me that what is happening in Gaza is in some ways a move away from pacification to totally re creating Gaza.

In book Eyal Weissmann does say where there is an architecture of the oppressor there is a counter architecture. Tunneling being one of them. Adapting to changes in IDF strategy by tunneling. Of course this is much more difficult to write about as it is secret.

It does look like whilst IDF have been systematically destroying homes and infrastructure the war against a guerrilla army based underground in tunnels isn't going so well.

In his book he points out things like the Separation Wall in West Bank was not just about keeping Palestinians out. It was also about keeping them under observation.

One of the things about Israel pulling out of Gaza was that observation was limited. In West Bank its impossible for Palestinians to move anywhere without going through checkpoints.

Cant rate this book more highly. Of all the ones I've read on present day Israel this is a must read. Its a bit out of date due to when it was published. But this is interesting to. As shows how military priorities change and alter over time, As well as political ones. And IDF is very close to politics. Ex military top brass end up as politicians and businessmen.

many years ago the idf use of postmodern notions came up in a discussion i had with a very prominent surveillance studies scholar, who told me that thousand plateaus was widely read in idf circles. ben zweibelson, the military design man, suggests it's less widely read than all that, but i am confident that deleuze and guattari are not names unknown to senior idf officers.

 

[scalyboy]

Israel Created 'Kill Zones' in Gaza. Anyone Who Crosses Into Them Is Shot​

"The Israeli army says 9,000 terrorists have been killed since the Gaza war began. Defense officials and soldiers, however, tell Haaretz that these are often civilians whose only crime was to cross an invisible line drawn by the IDF..."

 

[Gramsci]

many years ago the idf use of postmodern notions came up in a discussion i had with a very prominent surveillance studies scholar, who told me that thousand plateaus was widely read in idf circles. ben zweibelson, the military design man, suggests it's less widely read than all that, but i am confident that deleuze and guattari are not names unknown to senior idf officers.

In Eyal Weissmann book these are the names mentioned.

IDF have a tradition of sending officers to do degrees. One he talked to did one in philosophy. They told Eyal that they preferred to use the writings of post modern influenced architects.

It was no wholely successful. One problem found in Lebanon was that officers trained in this postmodern warfare would send their orders to juniors using the language and terms in sources such as in a thousand plateaus and juniors found the orders incomprehensible.

 

[scalyboy]

Israel is an ally- what does UK get in return?

A very good question... what indeed? At least the USA gets the strategic advantage of a friendly base in the ME.
WTF does the post-Suez, post Iraq, post-Afghan 'punching above its weight' UK get in return for being an accessory to genocide?

 

[Gramsci]

Thats standard urban fighting tactic since ww2 its called mouseholing

One of the problems with this kind of tactic is the effect on civilians

The theory was that this kind of warfare would be surgical and more humanitarian.

In practise what Eyal and others found was that burrowing through peoples houses was highly destructive and traumatising for civilians.

The use of postmodern thinkers on space led to the actual worsening of life for civilians. The home which ( however bourgeois that might seem) was a private space and refuge which this military tactics subverted/ transgressed. People found it a personal violation. Breaking down the borders between private and public space was not progress in this case.

 

[editor]

Local Labour Cllr suspended for voting locally for a ceasefire put this up.

This leading light in the Labour party having trouble answering straightforward question.

Answer is that Labour would sell arms to its ally.

Israel is an ally- what does UK get in return?

What a pointless piece of shit that bloke squirming his way through the interview is.

Who the fuck is he anyway?

 

[Gramsci]

What a pointless piece of shit that bloke squirming his way through the interview is.

Who the fuck is he anyway?

Pat McFadden. Labour party National Campaign co ordinator.

Twenty Labour councillors quit party in protest at leadership

Group in Lancashire claim national party ‘wants to control anything that any councillor wants to say’

www.theguardian.com

Pat McFadden - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Its him that is sending down to local areas the line Cllrs should take. Which Lambeth Labour group of course do and Cllr Abrams fell foul of.

Why today reported other Labour Cllrs have resigned. Labour party with people like him running it is top down.

I can see why Cllr Abrams has it in for him.

 

[Mezzer]

UK government lawyers say Israel is breaking international law, claims top Tory in leaked recording

Ex-Foreign Office and Ministry of Defence official Alicia Kearns said at a Tory fundraiser that legal advice would mean the UK has to cease all arms sales to Israel without delay

www.theguardian.com

What a pointless piece of shit that bloke squirming his way through the interview is.

Who the fuck is he anyway?

And the fucker is even smiling at one point.

 

[Smangus]

I hate this thread given the subject material. But force myself to read it so that I am more clued up about the awful situation in Gaza and the plight of the innocent people over there. Yet another example of stupid men ruining others lives.

Anyway as a reminder you can donate here to help those in need if you so wish.

https://www.map.org.uk/donate/donat...vX07zkrcC9uDVMCH-2eEJ9VOBx930RpwaAjPiEALw_wcB

 

[teqniq]

Killing the aid workers may well have not been the only motive:

 

[Mezzer]

I hate this thread given the subject material. But force myself to read it so that I am more clued up about the awful situation in Gaza and the plight of the innocent people over there. Yet another example of stupid men ruining others lives.

Anyway as a reminder you can donate here to help those in need if you so wish.

https://www.map.org.uk/donate/donat...vX07zkrcC9uDVMCH-2eEJ9VOBx930RpwaAjPiEALw_wcB

Isn't the tragic fact though, that there is aid and quite a lot of it. It's more that Israel is not allowing it into Gaza.

 

[Smangus]

Isn't the tragic fact though, that there is aid and quite a lot of it. It's more that Israel is not allowing it into Gaza.

Probably, I guess, but is that a reason not to give? Everyone must make their own mind up on that.

 

[likesfish]

Israel isn't doing anything clever or innovative re Urban warfare.
It's doing old school Soviet tactics forget room clearing just use tanks artillery or airpower to level the building. Which doesn't give give a fuck about civillians has the idea that they fled. Our manual mentioned civillians might be hiding in cellars which would be tough as we'd blasted are way into the building and shot at anything that someone could hide in. Although the chemical weapons would probably solved that issue
Hamas prepared for the fight but their outnumbered and outgunned aysmetrical warfare only really works if the more powerful oppenent hasn't decided to go fuck it imma going to kill everyone.

 

[SpineyNorman]

described by james connolly before his death in 1916

And Lissagaray in 1872

 

[Duncan2]

don't know if Israel is in the category of pariah state but if Guru-Murthy's interviews with their spokespersons are a good yardstick the wheels have well and truly come off their propaganda effort.The new man today asked repeatedly if he wanted to apologise for the latest massacre of aid workers was as helpless as a rabbit in the headlights.The best he could muster was a parting shot "Krishnan you're such a sweetheart".

 

[agricola]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

don't know if Israel is in the category of pariah state but if Guru-Murthy's interviews with their spokespersons are a good yardstick the wheels have well and truly come off their propaganda effort.The new man today asked repeatedly if he wanted to apologise for the latest massacre of aid workers was as helpless as a rabbit in the headlights.The best he could muster was a parting shot "Krishnan you're such a sweetheart".

They even seem to be losing the BBC. Listening to World Service today, they're still toeing the editorial line of repeating whatever lie Israel has said that day without comment, but the tone of the reporter saying it left little doubt of what they thought of it. Also, they introduced this story something like this:

The number of people killed in Gaza, as reported by the Hamas-run health agency, now stands at a staggering 32 thousand whatever, but it is the deaths of just seven people that have attracted the world's attention today.

Those aren't the exact words, but it's the gist. They still add the obligatory BBC caveat of 'Hamas-run' to the figure, but to open like that was very revealing. You get a real sense of rebellion brewing among BBC journalists.

 

[johnwesley]

Utterly speechless at the evil that Israel is capable of and the fact that Western governments still support them. 3 vehicles 3 strikes, and they informed Israel of what they were doing. As Alexei Sayle said, they lie, and they lie, and they lie and they lie. The fucker won't even apologise to Kristen who pushes him. When will the ICC act ffs.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Below article says they were hit because of a suspicion that one militant was travelling with them. If that's true, it's a deliberate killing - willing to take out 7 aid workers to get 1 militant.

Charities halt Gaza aid after drone attack that killed seven workers

Humanitarian groups say they cannot operate safely after Israeli targeting of food charity convoy prompts international outcry

www.theguardian.com

Why wouldn't they use a sniper, either human or remote controlled, instead to take out one suspect? They are good at that.

‘Not a normal war’: doctors say children have been targeted by Israeli snipers in Gaza

IDF says it ‘completely rejects’ charge that its soldiers deliberately fired on any of the thousands of civilians killed in Israeli offensive

www.theguardian.com

 

[Gramsci]

Utterly speechless at the evil that Israel is capable of and the fact that Western governments still support them. 3 vehicles 3 strikes, and they informed Israel of what they were doing. As Alexei Sayle said, they lie, and they lie, and they lie and they lie. The fucker won't even apologise to Kristen who pushes him. When will the ICC act ffs.

The IDF spokesman was at one point implying C4 reporter was taking sides with Hamas. When asked about investigations into deaths of other aid workers insinuating that some aid groups were doing the same. That it was a "dilemma" for Israel to see who the "good guys" of aid charities are.

So basically what he is saying is that in practise some aid workers are legitimate targets but in this case a mistake was made. As this particular charity are one of the "good guys".

WTF

 

[Cid]

Below article says they were hit because of a suspicion that one militant was travelling with them. If that's true, it's a deliberate killing - willing to take out 7 aid workers to get 1 militant.

Charities halt Gaza aid after drone attack that killed seven workers

Humanitarian groups say they cannot operate safely after Israeli targeting of food charity convoy prompts international outcry

www.theguardian.com

Also:

"According to Haaretz, the team notified the IDF they had been attacked, but another missile then hit the second car.

Passengers in the third car tried to help the wounded, the newspaper said. According to the Guardian’s geolocation of the strikes, the last car was hit by a third missile about a mile farther south."

and:

"Despite the fact that the suspect did not leave the warehouse with the rest of the group, the cars were hit as they travelled back along a route pre-approved and coordinated with the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)."

So at best it's a deliberate killing of 7 aid workers to get one militant. Skimming Haaretz seems to be a degree of hand waving from their IDF sources about 'commanders on the ground acting against orders'.

e2a: think most of the details from this Haaretz article: https://archive.ph/KHkyG

 

[Johnny Vodka]

The IDF spokesman was at one point implying C4 reporter was taking sides with Hamas. When asked about investigations into deaths of other aid workers insinuating that some aid groups were doing the same. That it was a "dilemma" for Israel to see who the "good guys" of aid charities are.

So basically what he is saying is that in practise some aid workers are legitimate targets but in this case a mistake was made. As this particular charity are one of the "good guys".

WTF

He also repeated the accusation that UNRWA workers took part in the Oct 7th massacre - a claim for which we've seen no substantial evidence so far AFAIK.

 

[teqniq]

Well that explains everything then. I presume there will consequently be zero accountability:


Israeli Army Sources: Gaza Aid Workers Killed Because 'IDF Officers on the Ground Do What They Want'

 

[Pickman's model]

Well that explains everything then. I presume there will consequently be zero accountability:


Israeli Army Sources: Gaza Aid Workers Killed Because 'IDF Officers on the Ground Do What They Want'

I think that's bollocks, my feeling us this was deliberate and authorised well away from gaza to halt the wck bringing food in, and halting other aid ngos feeding Palestinians. For me the zionists have achieved at least their short-term aim of reducing the amount of food in gaza and thus ensuring more Palestinians starve to death

 

[johnwesley]

I think that's bollocks, my feeling us this was deliberate and authorised well away from gaza to halt the wck bringing food in, and halting other aid ngos feeding Palestinians. For me the zionists have achieved at least their short-term aim of reducing the amount of food in gaza and thus ensuring more Palestinians starve to death

This interview with James Elder from UNICEF, an Australian working in Gaza explains the process every time an aid convoy needs to move anywhere and the permissions and coordination involved. Listening to this, I'm even more certain it was deliberate.



“When you get approvals to move and you're in an armoured vehicle, you have to trust the occupying power.”

In an interview with the BBC, Unicef spokesperson James Elder discusses the incident in which seven aid workers from World Central Kitchen were killed in Israeli strikes on their convoy. Elder emphasises that aid agencies, including WCK, provide precise coordinates and detailed information to Israeli authorities as part of their operational procedures.

 

[brogdale]

Utterly speechless at the evil that Israel is capable of and the fact that Western governments still support them. 3 vehicles 3 strikes, and they informed Israel of what they were doing. As Alexei Sayle said, they lie, and they lie, and they lie and they lie. The fucker won't even apologise to Kristen who pushes him. When will the ICC act ffs.

Even by Israeli state spox standards, Mencer was a vile example of mercenary pyschopathy, so I took the trouble to look into his background to understand how someone might become that twisted.

Ex-Labour councillor in Barnet, agent to Gwyneth Dunwoody and Director of Labour Friends of Israel. Nice.

 

[brogdale]

Twitter also tells me that he worked for Lammy as well. Double nice.

 

[Pickman's model]

This interview with James Elder from UNICEF, an Australian working in Gaza explains the process every time an aid convoy needs to move anywhere and the permissions and coordination involved. Listening to this, I'm even more certain it was deliberate.



“When you get approvals to move and you're in an armoured vehicle, you have to trust the occupying power.”

In an interview with the BBC, Unicef spokesperson James Elder discusses the incident in which seven aid workers from World Central Kitchen were killed in Israeli strikes on their convoy. Elder emphasises that aid agencies, including WCK, provide precise coordinates and detailed information to Israeli authorities as part of their operational procedures.

I heard something like that on the turdy programme yesterday, there is no alternative for me than this was aimed, and has succeeded in, halting Palestinians receiving food. So yeh this is something that happens in war when one side wants to kill everyone on the other

 

[Pickman's model]

Even by Israeli state spox standards, Mencer was a vile example of mercenary pyschopathy, so I took the trouble to look into his background to understand how someone might become that twisted.

Ex-Labour councillor in Barnet, agent to Gwyneth Dunwoody and Director of Labour Friends of Israel. Nice.

Are there Israeli friends of Labour?