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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

What are you going on about?

I was pointing out that on an international level your personal opinion has no weight. Israel won't become a pariah state because too many other states have interests in common with it. This includes: the UK, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the USA, amongst others. I mentioned Iran because despite being attacked in this case that regime too has no qualms about attacking perceived opponents both within the state and beyond, as was seen a few days ago in the stabbing of an exiled Iranian journalist in London last week. However, they too still have plenty of allies internationally, as do we. Nobody on an international cares about all those civilians murdered in Afghanistan by the SAS when they were trying to boost their kill numbers.
 
Someone (in real life) told me earlier this evening that there are emerging reports of IDF soldiers coming home from Gaza and refusing to go back there.

Anyone else heard this? I consider this person sound, reliable, and a good friend and colleague. But I think she may be being over optimistic.
 
I was pointing out that on an international level your personal opinion has no weight. Israel won't become a pariah state because too many other states have interests in common with it. This includes: the UK, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the USA, amongst others. I mentioned Iran because despite being attacked in this case that regime too has no qualms about attacking perceived opponents both within the state and beyond, as was seen a few days ago in the stabbing of an exiled Iranian journalist in London last week. However, they too still have plenty of allies internationally, as do we. Nobody on an international cares about all those civilians murdered in Afghanistan by the SAS when they were trying to boost their kill numbers.

Israel will eventually become a pariah state because the common interests that exist between states do not, even in a really crude transactional level, turn out to be common interests after all.

There is ironically no better example of this than US-Israeli relations, especially where the current Israeli government is concerned. The US will - and has repeatedly - backed Israel come what may with military force, supplies, diplomatic cover, political support and billions of dollars of US taxpayer money both before October 7th and afterwards. They've gotten nothing in return except being interfered with, spied upon, betrayed and ignored.

I mean, would anyone at all be surprised if this attack happened after the ceasefire negotiations reached a breakthrough?
 
Israel will eventually become a pariah state because the common interests that exist between states do not, even in a really crude transactional level, turn out to be common interests after all.

There is ironically no better example of this than US-Israeli relations, especially where the current Israeli government is concerned. The US will - and has repeatedly - backed Israel come what may with military force, supplies, diplomatic cover, political support and billions of dollars of US taxpayer money both before October 7th and afterwards. They've gotten nothing in return except being interfered with, spied upon, betrayed and ignored.

I mean, would anyone at all be surprised if this attack happened after the ceasefire negotiations reached a breakthrough?
It is possible that Israel is reaching the point of making itself too large a liability to the US, but have gotten used to taking unconditional support for granted and are also apparently ran by religious fanatics who are living in an echo chamber where any criticism of them is a sign of being besieged and justifies doubling down on uncompromising brutality. I'm not sure if they are correct and I don't think the US (at least under Biden) will bite if they are trying to drag them into a massive regional war, they have other more important fish to fry and the brinkmanship Israel is apparently playing is just madness, pure and simple.

I think more sober Israelis - even if they broadly support the occupation - can surely see that Netanyahu is dragging Israel into a very precarious position.
 
If the Democrats stopped supporting Israel, then the Republicans would exploit that politically, so nothing will change until November, by which time Netanyahu will probably be out of office and a there will be a face-saving settlement in Gaza.

Even if the US abandoned support Russia, which has had strong links with the regime, would step in.
 
It is possible that Israel is reaching the point of making itself too large a liability to the US, but have gotten used to taking unconditional support for granted and are also apparently ran by religious fanatics who are living in an echo chamber where any criticism of them is a sign of being besieged and justifies doubling down on uncompromising brutality. I'm not sure if they are correct and I don't think the US (at least under Biden) will bite if they are trying to drag them into a massive regional war, they have other more important fish to fry and the brinkmanship Israel is apparently playing is just madness, pure and simple.

I think more sober Israelis - even if they broadly support the occupation - can surely see that Netanyahu is dragging Israel into a very precarious position.

Sadly, I think that everything you need to know about the level of Netanyahu's concern for domestic political opinion can be seen by the fact that at least one of his sons is thousands of miles away from the fighting.
 
If the Democrats stopped supporting Israel, then the Republicans would exploit that politically, so nothing will change until November, by which time Netanyahu will probably be out of office and a there will be a face-saving settlement in Gaza.

Even if the US abandoned support Russia, which has had strong links with the regime, would step in.
That is possible but it isn't like Israel won't be an even bigger liability for Russian foreign policy, as Russia is quite close to Iran, Syria etc. Would massively undermine their attempts at branding as against western imperialism.
 
I was pointing out that on an international level your personal opinion has no weight. Israel won't become a pariah state because too many other states have interests in common with it. This includes: the UK, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the USA, amongst others. I mentioned Iran because despite being attacked in this case that regime too has no qualms about attacking perceived opponents both within the state and beyond, as was seen a few days ago in the stabbing of an exiled Iranian journalist in London last week. However, they too still have plenty of allies internationally, as do we. Nobody on an international cares about all those civilians murdered in Afghanistan by the SAS when they were trying to boost their kill numbers.

As I thought this is a variation of the argument that Israel is being picked on and singled out when other states are just as bad.

And yes my personal opinion carries no weight.

I was using Pariah state in terms of what a sizeable number of ordinary people like me think. So being slightly sarcastic. As I know fully well that governments of countries like mine and US will support Israel whatever happens.

Also countries like Iran and Russia have had sanctions put on them for their actions.

Apart from a few settlers getting sanctioned this has not happened to Israel.

The case brought by SA will grind on slowly. Have to see how that goes. One flicker of hope that some justice will be done
 
Israel will eventually become a pariah state because the common interests that exist between states do not, even in a really crude transactional level, turn out to be common interests after all.

There is ironically no better example of this than US-Israeli relations, especially where the current Israeli government is concerned. The US will - and has repeatedly - backed Israel come what may with military force, supplies, diplomatic cover, political support and billions of dollars of US taxpayer money both before October 7th and afterwards. They've gotten nothing in return except being interfered with, spied upon, betrayed and ignored.

I mean, would anyone at all be surprised if this attack happened after the ceasefire negotiations reached a breakthrough?
I - mostly - agree. Why mostly? Because the US no longer has a coherent ruling elite that can decide on a common set of foreign policy goals acceptable to all factions in the elite, and capable of winning the loyalty of the masses.
 
I was pointing out that on an international level your personal opinion has no weight. Israel won't become a pariah state because too many other states have interests in common with it. This includes: the UK, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the USA, amongst others. I mentioned Iran because despite being attacked in this case that regime too has no qualms about attacking perceived opponents both within the state and beyond, as was seen a few days ago in the stabbing of an exiled Iranian journalist in London last week. However, they too still have plenty of allies internationally, as do we. Nobody on an international cares about all those civilians murdered in Afghanistan by the SAS when they were trying to boost their kill numbers.

And I question this.

Rationally I do not see in present day what countries like US and this one get from supporting Israel. On straightforward cynical self interest basis.

Back in day of Empire in early days of mandate there was perhaps argument that a future Israel would be loyal ally of British Empire and help guard its interests in region. That's all gone now. Even at time their were those in Foreign Office who were not so sure about it.
 
Been reading more of Hollow Lands by the Israeli architect Eyal Weissmann

Written in 2007 its an architects view of the occupation.

The chapter read today is about the IDF. Modelling and remaking the urban environment. Ex military like Sharon ( planning location of settlements )and also IDf themselves are part of this.

Back when he wrote the book there was a move to pacification rather than conflict.

Or rather that was the theory.

The Israeli army developed new tactics to fight in urban environment.

Using post modern theory looked at fighting a non conventional war. Heavily defended refugee camps were made up of narrow alleys that could be well defending by lightly armed guerilla army. So instead of attacking in obvious way IDF "walked through the wall". Treating the architectural space in radical way- gained from IDF military advisors studying postmodern architectural theory. So instead of going through alleyways where they could be attacked easily they blow holes in peoples housing. Burrowing through and making a new architectural space. Second the command structure would be decentralised allowing groups of IDF to "swarm". Act more like insects - finding a way where knowledge was not top down. They borrowed from radical post modern theory not for its radical goals but its critique of structure and top down management.

( To add my knowledge of this kind of theory is very sketchy. So taking Eyal word for this. He does say he is not criticising the theory. But he does say this could be seen as example of what Marcuse ( Frankfurt Marxist) said about how in late capitalism all radical opposition ideas are co opted)

It was part of the idea from the more liberal end of IDF. Who saw a peace process with withdrawal of IDF troops from Palestinian areas. But with right of IDF to enter (swarm) in and out for security reasons. This was part of a particular idea of the two state solution. Which as Eyal Weissmann points out was very much less than a real state for Palestinians. He introduces idea of vertical apartheid. Where ground level might have some Palestinian self government but the sky ( fighter aircraft) and most of resources under ground ( water) would still be under Israeli control.

Apart from fact Palestinian fighters adapted to these new tactics what was found in end was that old school crushing force was still needed. Armoured bulldozers for example

However it did mean that for IDF the difference between civilian space and fighters space was broken down. Previously some refugee camps had been no go areas.

I have found something by him on recent Gaza. But not watched that yet.

Seems to me that what is happening in Gaza is in some ways a move away from pacification to totally re creating Gaza.

In book Eyal Weissmann does say where there is an architecture of the oppressor there is a counter architecture. Tunneling being one of them. Adapting to changes in IDF strategy by tunneling. Of course this is much more difficult to write about as it is secret.

It does look like whilst IDF have been systematically destroying homes and infrastructure the war against a guerrilla army based underground in tunnels isn't going so well.

In his book he points out things like the Separation Wall in West Bank was not just about keeping Palestinians out. It was also about keeping them under observation.

One of the things about Israel pulling out of Gaza was that observation was limited. In West Bank its impossible for Palestinians to move anywhere without going through checkpoints.

Cant rate this book more highly. Of all the ones I've read on present day Israel this is a must read. Its a bit out of date due to when it was published. But this is interesting to. As shows how military priorities change and alter over time, As well as political ones. And IDF is very close to politics. Ex military top brass end up as politicians and businessmen.
 
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And I question this.

Rationally I do not see in present day what countries like US and this one get from supporting Israel. On straightforward cynical self interest basis.

Back in day of Empire in early days of mandate there was perhaps argument that a future Israel would be loyal ally of British Empire and help guard its interests in region. That's all gone now. Even at time their were those in Foreign Office who were not so sure about it.


In the USA, it's a vote loser not to stand with Israel. In the UK, Starmer has built his brand on not being Corbyn and central to that is not being a supporter of Palestine.
 
If the Democrats stopped supporting Israel, then the Republicans would exploit that politically, so nothing will change until November, by which time Netanyahu will probably be out of office and a there will be a face-saving settlement in Gaza.

Even if the US abandoned support Russia, which has had strong links with the regime, would step in.
My understanding is that Putin did indeed support the Israeli regime up until the Ukraine war when Russia was faced with condemnation and sanctions from Europe and the USA (as well as support for Ukraine in the form of weaponry, munitions etc) at which point Putin said "fuck this" and instead aligned himself with Iran.
 
The USA didn't intentionally bomb the Chinese Embassy, the then President (Clinton) made a public and private apology for the bombing and paid compensation to the Chinese state and to the families of those killed.
Was never convinced myself
 
My understanding is that Putin did indeed support the Israeli regime up until the Ukraine war when Russia was faced with condemnation and sanctions from Europe and the USA (as well as support for Ukraine in the form of weaponry, munitions etc) at which point Putin said "fuck this" and instead aligned himself with Iran.

They always maintained good relationships with both. They worked happily alongside Iran in support of Asad in Syria.
 
Been reading more of Hollow Lands by the Israeli architect Eyal Weissmann

Written in 2007 its an architects view of the occupation.

The chapter read today is about the IDF. Modelling and remaking the urban environment. Ex military like Sharon ( planning location of settlements )and also IDf themselves are part of this.

Back when he wrote the book there was a move to pacification rather than conflict.

Or rather that was the theory.

The Israeli army developed new tactics to fight in urban environment.

Using post modern theory looked at fighting a non conventional war. Heavily defended refugee camps were made up of narrow alleys that could be well defending by lightly armed guerilla army. So instead of attacking in obvious way IDF "walked through the wall". Treating the architectural space in radical way- gained from IDF military advisors studying postmodern architectural theory. So instead of going through alleyways where they could be attacked easily they blow holes in peoples housing. Burrowing through and making a new architectural space. Second the command structure would be decentralised allowing groups of IDF to "swarm". Act more like insects - finding a way where knowledge was not top down. They borrowed from radical post modern theory not for its radical goals but its critique of structure and top down management.

( To add my knowledge of this kind of theory is very sketchy. So taking Eyal word for this. He does say he is not criticising the theory. But he does say this could be seen as example of what Marcuse ( Frankfurt Marxist) said about how in late capitalism all radical opposition ideas are co opted)

It was part of the idea from the more liberal end of IDF. Who saw a peace process with withdrawal of IDF troops from Palestinian areas. But with right of IDF to enter (swarm) in and out for security reasons. This was part of a particular idea of the two state solution. Which as Eyal Weissmann points out was very much less than a real state for Palestinians. He introduces idea of vertical apartheid. Where ground level might have some Palestinian self government but the sky ( fighter aircraft) and most of resources under ground ( water) would still be under Israeli control.

Apart from fact Palestinian fighters adapted to these new tactics what was found in end was that old school crushing force was still needed. Armoured bulldozers for example

However it did mean that for IDF the difference between civilian space and fighters space was broken down. Previously some refugee camps had been no go areas.

I have found something by him on recent Gaza. But not watched that yet.

Seems to me that what is happening in Gaza is in some ways a move away from pacification to totally re creating Gaza.

In book Eyal Weissmann does say where there is an architecture of the oppressor there is a counter architecture. Tunneling being one of them. Adapting to changes in IDF strategy by tunneling. Of course this is much more difficult to write about as it is secret.

It does look like whilst IDF have been systematically destroying homes and infrastructure the war against a guerrilla army based underground in tunnels isn't going so well.

In his book he points out things like the Separation Wall in West Bank was not just about keeping Palestinians out. It was also about keeping them under observation.

One of the things about Israel pulling out of Gaza was that observation was limited. In West Bank its impossible for Palestinians to move anywhere without going through checkpoints.

Cant rate this book more highly. Of all the ones I've read on present day Israel this is a must read. Its a bit out of date due to when it was published. But this is interesting to. As shows how military priorities change and alter over time, As well as political ones. And IDF is very close to politics. Ex military top brass end up as politicians and businessmen.
Sounds like a v interesting read, thanks.

Friend of mine visited Israel and the West Bank a couple of years ago and had it explained to him that a motorway running through the West Bank was not permitted to be used by Palestinian drivers unless they were doctors.
It's enforced by car registration plate camera recognition (anyone whose been done in the UK for speeding or driving in a bus lane or an LTN etc will know how sophisticated the cameras are these days and how clear the images are; it's very obviously your motor in the photos provided in the fixed penalty documentation).

A form of hi-tech apartheid.
Israel - as is well known - has a very advanced IT/software industry sector.
 
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I see no indication that USA will drop support for Israel.
Any optimism that derives from the recent words of Biden, Blinken and other politicians is in my view to forget what these people are.
Too many votes at stake to dump Israel and it's lobbyists
 
The USA didn't intentionally bomb the Chinese Embassy, the then President (Clinton) made a public and private apology for the bombing and paid compensation to the Chinese state and to the families of those killed.
He would do, wouldn't he?

 
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They always maintained good relationships with both. They worked happily alongside Iran in support of Asad in Syria.
That's true, but things could turn out different now?

Somewhat unrelated to your post but this is me just musing; if Trump gets in again (which, astonishingly, seems quite possible), and with his isolationist stance (anti-NATO etc) combined with his Putin bromance (whether because of kompromat, or because Trump admires a 'strong leader' - especially one who's a judo exponent and has been pictured hunting bears bare-chested), what would that mean for US military and financial support for Israel?

Could Trump-style isolationism result in the USA cutting off or at least reducing its support for Israel, or would the US electorate not permit it (not just those who are Jewish, but the fundamentalist Christian tendency who are pro-israel because of the Old Testament 'chosen people' or because the Holy Land is where the final judgement Armageddon will take place or the Rapture or whatever the fuck...?)
 
Sounds like a v interesting read, thanks.

Friend of mine visited Israel and the West Bank a couple of years ago and had it explained to him that a motorway running through the West Bank was not permitted to be used by Palestinian drivers unless they were doctors.
It's enforced by car registration plate camera recognition (anyone whose been done in the UK for speeding or driving in a bus lane or an LTN etc will know how sophisticated the cameras are these days and how clear the images are; it's very obviously your motor in the photos provided in the fixed penalty documentation).

A form of hi-tech apartheid.
Israel - as is well known - has a very advanced IT/software industry sector.

Middle East Eye big picture podcast has interview with him which I watched a few weeks back. It is wide ranging and he talks about his more recent Forensic Architecture practise. A counter/ anti architecture that counters official state narratives. As he says architects are hi tech now and are taught skills that can be used for this. His architectural practise is open source so others can learn and use from it.

All very interesting and he is applying his experience of Israel and architecture world wide now.



Elsewhere in book he discusses the road system. It was partly for economic reasons. The settlements nearer Israel needed to be connected to major workplaces like Tel Aviv. So motorways like your friend was told about where built. Settlement building attracted government grants. Those nearer Israel border got the least those farthest away got the most ( more likely to be lived in by the hard core religious settlers). Most of those who bought home in West Bank did so because they were cheaper and transport links are good. Israeli citizens who are Palestinians are through bureaucratic hurdles barred from buying homes in West Bank

As Eyal Weissmann points out the road system also helps to divide up the space in West Bank. So as you say its part of the apartheid system. He says the apartheid colonial system is embedded in the architecture.

In book he argues that this is war by other means.

A thing about him tech surveillance. In Palestine he argues that the effect of this is not fully successful. People do not internalise this and accept it. However hi tech and benign it appears Palestinians see through it. Which would explain why the farce of the two state Oslo solution never got anywhere.

Israel state is combination of high tech sophistication and brute violence. Violence is always lurking in the background for Palestinians.
 
Been reading more of Hollow Lands by the Israeli architect Eyal Weissmann

Written in 2007 its an architects view of the occupation.

The chapter read today is about the IDF. Modelling and remaking the urban environment. Ex military like Sharon ( planning location of settlements )and also IDf themselves are part of this.

Back when he wrote the book there was a move to pacification rather than conflict.

Or rather that was the theory.

The Israeli army developed new tactics to fight in urban environment.

Using post modern theory looked at fighting a non conventional war. Heavily defended refugee camps were made up of narrow alleys that could be well defending by lightly armed guerilla army. So instead of attacking in obvious way IDF "walked through the wall". Treating the architectural space in radical way- gained from IDF military advisors studying postmodern architectural theory. So instead of going through alleyways where they could be attacked easily they blow holes in peoples housing. Burrowing through and making a new architectural space. Second the command structure would be decentralised allowing groups of IDF to "swarm". Act more like insects - finding a way where knowledge was not top down. They borrowed from radical post modern theory not for its radical goals but its critique of structure and top down management.

( To add my knowledge of this kind of theory is very sketchy. So taking Eyal word for this. He does say he is not criticising the theory. But he does say this could be seen as example of what Marcuse ( Frankfurt Marxist) said about how in late capitalism all radical opposition ideas are co opted)

It was part of the idea from the more liberal end of IDF. Who saw a peace process with withdrawal of IDF troops from Palestinian areas. But with right of IDF to enter (swarm) in and out for security reasons. This was part of a particular idea of the two state solution. Which as Eyal Weissmann points out was very much less than a real state for Palestinians. He introduces idea of vertical apartheid. Where ground level might have some Palestinian self government but the sky ( fighter aircraft) and most of resources under ground ( water) would still be under Israeli control.

Apart from fact Palestinian fighters adapted to these new tactics what was found in end was that old school crushing force was still needed. Armoured bulldozers for example

However it did mean that for IDF the difference between civilian space and fighters space was broken down. Previously some refugee camps had been no go areas.

I have found something by him on recent Gaza. But not watched that yet.

Seems to me that what is happening in Gaza is in some ways a move away from pacification to totally re creating Gaza.

In book Eyal Weissmann does say where there is an architecture of the oppressor there is a counter architecture. Tunneling being one of them. Adapting to changes in IDF strategy by tunneling. Of course this is much more difficult to write about as it is secret.

It does look like whilst IDF have been systematically destroying homes and infrastructure the war against a guerrilla army based underground in tunnels isn't going so well.

In his book he points out things like the Separation Wall in West Bank was not just about keeping Palestinians out. It was also about keeping them under observation.

One of the things about Israel pulling out of Gaza was that observation was limited. In West Bank its impossible for Palestinians to move anywhere without going through checkpoints.

Cant rate this book more highly. Of all the ones I've read on present day Israel this is a must read. Its a bit out of date due to when it was published. But this is interesting to. As shows how military priorities change and alter over time, As well as political ones. And IDF is very close to politics. Ex military top brass end up as politicians and businessmen.
Thats standard urban fighting tactic since ww2 its called mouseholing
 
Thats standard urban fighting tactic since ww2 its called mouseholing

In the book he goes into the background more. Similar tactic was also used against those fighting on the barricades in Paris in 19c.
Instead of meeting them head on went into adjacent houses and around barricades.

Some of the techniques IDF use they learnt form British when they ran the Mandate. Collective punishment for example.

Unorthodox military tactics like Orde Wingate's infamous Night Squads used to attack and terrorise Palestinian villages in the revolt of the 1930s.

Someone like Ariel Sharon exemplifies the thinking outside the box military tactics. His early career was in the border wars post 48. In Unit 101 set up to go into Gaza and use the tactics of the night squads. To suppress Palestinian opposition to not being able to return to their homes. Unit 101 was a law unto itself and highly effective.

There has always been this side of IDF where treating civilians as part of the problem was given unofficial green light.

So this this is not new. What he says in book is that these tactics have to be re invented.

US have also spent some time on this. Sharon career is textbook case.

What is being seen in Gaza is not out of line with what Israel has done in past. If the general destruction is much greater. Rounding up people on mass/ treating them badly/ killing civilians. All part and parcel of IDF history.
 
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