Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Gramsci]

ffs I take one day off and look what happens

Please stop with the 'hasbara' shit though, I've been accused of that frequently in online arguments and it's bollocks, even tim has been accused of it on this very thread, it's a stupid, meaningless slur.

But now I'm backing away again. Sorry not sorry.

You know after all the abuse you posted up last night I'm not sorry your backing off for a while.

Some new poster comes here to wind people up and this is all you can say.

TBF I think the way the new poster has been answered has been reasonable. Given the stuff they have been posting.

You took day off and other posters dealt with the wind up new poster well imo.

 

[Gramsci]

Here's a book review about a considered history of coexistence in the Levant: Before Zionism: The shared life of Jews and Palestinians - +972 Magazine

Read the review and this looks like worth a read.

Thanks for posting this up

 

[mojo pixy]

You know after all the abuse you posted up last night I'm not sorry your backing off for a while.

Abuse?

I don't think so.

In fact, justify that. It's bang out of order. I've posted nothing - nothing - abusive. Justify, or apologize.

You're not sorry I'm taking a step back because my posts make you uncomfortable. You call that 'abuse', that's just fucking rude.

 

[Gramsci]

Abuse?

I don't think so.

In fact, justify that. It's bang out of order. I've posted nothing - nothing - abusive. Justify, or apologize.

You're not sorry I'm taking a step back because my posts make you uncomfortable. You call that 'abuse', that's just fucking rude.

You were calling me patronising for starters last night.

I tried to be as civil as possible last night but now you decided to re post one of the very few times I lost it on here Ive no patience this evening.

And no your posts do not make me feel uncomfortable.

 

[mojo pixy]

You were patronising. 'Do you really mean all' like some gotcha logic bro.

I was never abusive, so apologize.

 

[dylanredefined]

They have tried that. But war is the only tool is the zionist arsenal

Who are really good at it.
Everyone knew as soon as Oct 7 th happened Gaza was going to be smashed. Giving the other side an excuse to justify genocide is really dumb.

 

[mojo pixy]

And no your posts do not make me feel uncomfortable.

Yeah they do, because some of your postings come very close to anti-semitism and I'm not scared to say so.

You don't like it because you think your four months of reading makes you an expert on zionism. I respect that you've actually bothered to read up on it, but your posts suggest your reading has been guided by your pre-existing attitudes. You need to understand that it IS antisemitic to assert Israel can only exist if it's not Jewish. You don't even need to be Jewish to understand that, it's glaringly obvious.

If israelis decided, collectively, to abandon Judaism as a state religion and cultural outlook, that's up to them. But for you to essentially demand it as if you know better - something quite common on the left tbh - it's really dodgy and you'd do well to let that thread go. Or, be more honest about what those views imply.

 

[Pickman's model]

Who are really good at it.
Everyone knew as soon as Oct 7 th happened Gaza was going to be smashed. Giving the other side an excuse to justify genocide is really dumb.

They're not all that. Post-heroic wankers

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah they do, because some of your postings come very close to anti-semitism and I'm not scared to say so.

You don't like it because you think your four months of reading makes you an expert on zionism. I respect that you've actually bothered to read up on it, but your posts suggest your reading has been guided by your pre-existing attitudes. You need to understand that it IS antisemitic to assert Israel can only exist if it's not Jewish. You don't even need to be Jewish to understand that, it's glaringly obvious.

If israelis decided, collectively, to abandon Judaism as a state religion and cultural outlook, that's up to them. But for you to essentially demand it as if you know better - something quite common on the left tbh - it's really dodgy and you'd do well to let that thread go. Or, be more honest about what those views imply.

You're pretty close here to saying that anti-Zionism is anti-semitism, while conflating 'Israeli' with 'Jewish'. Also, absent from your discussion about what should or should not be 'up to Israel' are the Palestinians.

 

[dylanredefined]

They're not all that. Post-heroic wankers

They are still turning Gaza into rubble though.
The IDF may not be the invincible army still more powerful than Hamas. Still no idea what the plan was.
" Let's butcher some Jews take some hostages and the Zionist state will just give up?"
That worked out well. Gaza is in ruins they killed 20 times or more Palestinians and millions are refugees. Anyone who could actually help them isn't.

 

[teqniq]

Who are really good at it.
Everyone knew as soon as Oct 7 th happened Gaza was going to be smashed. Giving the other side an excuse to justify genocide is really dumb.

It would seem to be a relatively easy thing to smash everything up with overwhelming firepower particularly when what they've done most of is kill civilians and destroy infrastructure. They have signally failed thus far in their stated aim of destroying Hamas and look like failing to do so right now.

 

[mojo pixy]

You're pretty close here to saying that anti-Zionism is anti-semitism, while conflating 'Israeli' with 'Jewish'. Also, absent from your discussion about what should or should not be 'up to Israel' are the Palestinians.

Some anti-zionism (the kind that says Israel can't be jewish) is anti-semitic.

Some anti-zionism (the kind that says Israel should never have been created at all because the land belonged to other people) isn't.

I'm not confusing Jewish and Israeli. I well know the difference thanks. For example, most jews in the world don't live there, and don't want to.

You're playing at sophistry, like you like to, but my posts are so simple even you can really only misunderstand them on purpose.

 

[Raheem]

Some anti-zionism (the kind that says Israel can't be jewish) is anti-semitic.

Some anti-zionism (the kind that says Israel should never have been created at all because the land belonged to other people) isn't.

So calling for its abolition is OK, but suggesting it should be secular, really not OK. Got it.

 

[mojo pixy]

So calling for its abolition is OK, but suggesting it should be secular, really not OK. Got it.

Who called for its abolition? You can believe it should never have been made and yet accept without a time machine that it has been.

You, can do better.

 

[Raheem]

Who called for its abolition? You can believe it should never have been made and yet accept without a time machine that it has been.

You, can do better.

You're focusing on the first part only there, rather than the inconsistency between the two parts, which was the point I was making.

 

[mojo pixy]

You're focusing on the first part only there, rather than the inconsistency between the two parts, which was the point I was making.

No, I'm focusing on the idea that you can regret something happening and imagine having been opposed to it at the time, and yet accept it did happen and work towards solving the problems it caused.

 

[Gramsci]

Yeah they do, because some of your postings come very close to anti-semitism and I'm not scared to say so.

You don't like it because you think your four months of reading makes you an expert on zionism. I respect that you've actually bothered to read up on it, but your posts suggest your reading has been guided by your pre-existing attitudes. You need to understand that it IS antisemitic to assert Israel can only exist if it's not Jewish. You don't even need to be Jewish to understand that, it's glaringly obvious.

If israelis decided, collectively, to abandon Judaism as a state religion and cultural outlook, that's up to them. But for you to essentially demand it as if you know better - something quite common on the left tbh - it's really dodgy and you'd do well to let that thread go. Or, be more honest about what those views imply.

As it happens my views have not been guided by pre existing attitudes.

I started reading a while back As I did now t know enough about this. As the row about anti semitism in UK was a lot about Israel.

Most of what I've read has been by Israeli Jews.

The actual history of what happened to create state of Israel is worse than I had thought.

You are conflating Jews with Israel.

I do not see how calling for a secular state that is not Zionist where the Jewish Israelis and Palestinians can live side by side in the future is anti Semitic.

Its what some Israelis are saying. Ilan Pappe/ Jeff Halper/ Avi Shlaim call for it now. All of whom are Israelis. Tony Judt the British historian changed his mind and said the same.

Not sure what you mean by be honest about what those views imply. This is not about calling for the deportation of Jewish Israelis.

Its about a different kind of state.

And as littlebabyjesus says what is absent from your view is the Palestinians.

 

[Pickman's model]

They are still turning Gaza into rubble though.
The IDF may not be the invincible army still more powerful than Hamas. Still no idea what the plan was.
" Let's butcher some Jews take some hostages and the Zionist state will just give up?"
That worked out well. Gaza is in ruins they killed 20 times or more Palestinians and millions are refugees. Anyone who could actually help them isn't.

You're acting like nothing will happen when just about everyone else thinks it well might
What happens when the death toll gets to 50, 75, 100k? Hell,its probably 50k already and there's a lot more dying yet to be done. Sure the brave men of the idf kill women and children like auld pros. But there's a reckoning coming down the line and as corporal Jones said they won't like it up em

 

[agricola]

Who are really good at it.
Everyone knew as soon as Oct 7 th happened Gaza was going to be smashed. Giving the other side an excuse to justify genocide is really dumb.

Everyone knew Gaza was going to be smashed because that is what Netanyahu and his ilk always do when faced with things of that kind.

Smashing it clearly hadn't worked in terms of increasing Israeli security prior to October 7th, and so far they look to be marching heroically towards making things worse this time too.

 

[Raheem]

No, I'm focusing on the idea that you can regret something happening and imagine having been opposed to it at the time, and yet accept it did happen and work towards solving the problems it caused.

Yes, I noticed.

What you're saying is it's not anti-semitic to drone on about historic rights and wrongs that no-one can change, but supporting the idea of a secular society is. That's precisely the wrong way around IMO.

 

[mojo pixy]

As it happens my views have not been guided by pre existing attitudes.

I started reading a while back As I did now t know enough about this. As the row about anti semitism in UK was a lot about Israel.

Most of what I've read has been by Israeli Jews.

The actual history of what happened to create state of Israel is worse than I had thought.

You are conflating Jews with Israel.

I do not see how calling for a secular state that is not Zionist where the Jewish Israelis and Palestinians can live side by side in the future is anti Semitic.

Its what some Israelis are saying. Ilan Pappe/ Jeff Halper/ Avi Shlaim call for it now. All of whom are Israelis. Tony Judt the British historian changed his mind and said the same.

Not sure what you mean by be honest about what those views imply. This is not about calling for the deportation of Jewish Israelis.

Its about a different kind of state.

And as littlebabyjesus says what is absent from your view is the Palestinians.

Whataboutery now. Literally. What about the Palestinians?

Fine. Palestinians need their own country and a fair and just settlement, with masses of compensation and where all who want to are allowed to return to their ancestral homes within Israel.

While Israel gets to stay Jewish. Secular might be easier in the long run but that's for them to decide.

I really don't know what's so difficult to understand, and as for me I've held this position for as long as I remember. I am aware it's an impossible dream but so is communism and i cant let that go either.

Anyway events have now overtaken my rather old-fashioned view but I'm working on that.

 

[mojo pixy]

Yes, I noticed.

What you're saying is it's not anti-semitic to drone on about historic rights and wrongs that no-one can change, but supporting the idea of a secular society is. That's precisely the wrong way around.

I support a secular society. But I don't demand it, I don't make it a starting point or a red line.

"That's the wrong way around", I don't really understand what that means. It's not anti-semitic or racist to judge the historic actions of people in terms of the harm they caused, or to try and work out how to redeem / rectify / compensate them.

It is anti-semitic to demand that the only Jewish country in the world must stop being Jewish in order to go on existing.

ffs, how is this not being got?

 

[Gramsci]

Whataboutery now. Literally. What about the Palestinians?

Fine. Palestinians need their own country and a fair and just settlement, with masses of compensation and where all who want to are allowed to return to their ancestral homes within Israel.

While Israel gets to stay Jewish. Secular might be easier in the long run but that's for them to decide.

I really don't know what's so difficult to understand, and as for me I've held this position for as long as I remember. I am aware it's an impossible dream but so is communism and i cant let that go either.

Anyway events have now overtaken my rather old-fashioned view but I'm working on that.

I do not always follow your argument.

You are saying that Palestinians if they want could return to their ancestral homes. How is that going to work? One of the things the early Zionists realised is that demographics matter. If their is to be a Jewish state the majority have to be Jewish. So logically if this what you want then Palestinians are not going to be allowed to return to their ancestral homes.

 

[mojo pixy]

I do not always follow your argument.

You are saying that Palestinians if they want could return to their ancestral homes. How is that going to work? One of the things the early Zionists realised is that demographics matter. If their is to be a Jewish state the majority have to be Jewish. So logically if this what you want then Palestinians are not going to be allowed to return to their ancestral homes.

How will it work? No idea. It's just the right thing to do.

How will your non-jewish, secular Israel work?

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I will read it later, but yes, Netanyahu definitely bears some responsibility for Hamas being where they are now. I don't claim Israel have not made errors.

But that is a left wing newspaper and they also are deluded regarding a two state solution being able to bring about some sort of peace.

Indeed: has to be a unitary state to end the apartheid. Well spotted

 

[Gramsci]

How will it work? No idea. It's just the right thing to do.

How will your non-jewish, secular Israel work?

Its not my Israel.

There are suggestions.

I've already read one by an Israeli and posted up here about thie book he wrote.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

How will it work? No idea. It's just the right thing to do.

How will your non-jewish, secular Israel work?

Mojo I admire you for sticking to your principled position.

But to me it just reinforces the non-viability of the two state solution, which to my regret I used to think was the answer.

But stick to your guns (metaphorically!)—for any viable solution must include reasonable people like yourself.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

How will your non-jewish, secular Israel work?

It would necessarily involve compromise from all sides and good faith negotiation to create a state that contains constitutional guarantees for everyone, including Jews. Not a Jewish state but still a state for Jews to live in.

The point about asking 'what about the Palestinians' is that they have to be in this negotiation. So it can't be a case of 'Israel deciding what it should be' on its own. It's already had an opportunity to do something like that, and blown it big time.

 

[mojo pixy]

You are saying that Palestinians if they want could return to their ancestral homes. How is that going to work? One of the things the early Zionists realised is that demographics matter. If their is to be a Jewish state the majority have to be Jewish

Yes, I think this was the mistake they made actually, insisting that there needed to be a Jewish majority. They should have made the state Jewish but pluralistic. Like say, the UK is Christian but all faiths are protected by law.

Modern Israel was the product of Great-Power politics, racism, war and genocide. It was founded very much in anger and fear and its history so far has reflected that. It's divided, because despite being nominally Jewish, it's people have come from dozens of countries and cultures. I've been saying it for years, Israel needs an external enemy or it would tear itself apart.

I have a ton of solutions, but none are what I'd call realistic - and yet none would require Israel to stop being a Jewish state. I don't even believe that's necessary.

Anyway it's late, I'm tired and I can't be fucked having simultaneous arguments.

 

[mojo pixy]

Its not my Israel.

There are suggestions.

I've already read one by an Israeli and posted up here about thie book he wrote.

I've read many of the books you've quoted. I'm very realistic about Israel, what it is and importantly, how it behaves. I lived there as I've mentioned but don't go on about it. I did travel all over including days (yes yes only days but they were well spent!) touristing around the west bank. Met a lot of very secular israelis (nearly all my friends and family) also christians and muslims.

I think my posts here have shown me to be very far from a zionist - but I do maintain it's dodgy to demand Israel should as a prerequisite stop being Jewish, despite I accept that might be better in the long run. It's simply not something for the International Left to dictate.