Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
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Not enough destruction and ethnic cleansing yet, obviously.
Netanyahu orders military to plan evacuations from Rafah
The Israeli PM's order comes after the US warned against an unplanned invasion of the Gazan city.
www.bbc.co.uk
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Not enough destruction and ethnic cleansing yet, obviously.
Netanyahu orders military to plan evacuations from Rafah
The Israeli PM's order comes after the US warned against an unplanned invasion of the Gazan city.www.bbc.co.uk
Evacuate to fucking where exactly?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Even the BBC are reporting this with incredulity, which doesn't happen often with the BBC and Israel. They still falsely characterise Israel's operation as 'seeking to destroy Hamas', but World Service has at least reported that experts on the ground say this is a ludicrous suggestion. It is already a desperately under-resourced and overcrowded refugee camp and a disaster area for disease.
Maybe Israel could take them in?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I wouldn't be surprised if the displacement of Palestinians and their concentration in rafah was done by design, not to force the Palestinians out of the gaza strip but to create a situation in which there is nowhere for them left to go and they can be killed in such numbers as would in bn's view teach the Palestinians such a lesson as would reverberate down the generations. Didn't he say something like that near the start of the genocide? Even if this ended now and adequate supplies of food medicine and water entered gaza, you're still looking at tens of thousands more deaths. The destruction of the buildings imo precedes the destruction of the people,possibly accompanied by forced marches, the 'evacuation plan'. None of this is a mistake by the zionists, this is all being done quite deliberately and makes me long for the extinguishing of the state of Israel. How many dead will satisfy their blood lust? I'm quite convinced an eighth to a quarter of the gazans will be dead by the end of this, maybe more
The zionists are such scum
The zionists are such scum
RhymnRzn
anti-doter
they're going for the champion's belt for most abusive of all domesticke broils. disgusting to witness an army 100 times stronger than the resistance, vaunting themselves to this hour. I'd be more impressed at who would win at a "he who is without sin cast the first" stone thowing contest. obviously they want the whole place in jewry as they define it, and their agenda is a hegemon wide enough that they can then focus on scuds, or what threat will be for taking it all. the natural checks and balances seem to be plenty, but the warnings have been ignored, they might keep on over the cliff, though they could equally discern that all the trouble will not be worth it, being destined to failure.
It would appear from footage on youtube that quite apart from the destruction wrought from the air the Israelis are finishing the job with bulldozers and the use of controlled explosives.Very deliberate and indeed sinister.
teqniq
DisMembered
'Appears'
www.theguardian.com
Israel appears to be in breach of ICJ orders on Gaza, senior UN official says
Special rapporteur cites lack of medical supplies, food and clean water, and continued demolition of infrastructure
Spandex
A crazy bulbous punchbag of sound
Remember the story about the 6 year old girl who was trapped in a car with her dead family, on the phone to the Red Crescent while an ambulance was dispatched, then the ambulance went missing and contact with the girl was lost and the IDF were all 'we don't know'?
The Red Cresent have found that the ambulance was bombed, killing the crew, and the girl is dead.
Amongst the daily barbaric slaughter, every once in a while it's a thing like this that cuts through and really fucking upsets me
The Red Cresent have found that the ambulance was bombed, killing the crew, and the girl is dead.
Amongst the daily barbaric slaughter, every once in a while it's a thing like this that cuts through and really fucking upsets me
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Remember the story about the 6 year old girl who was trapped in a car with her dead family, on the phone to the Red Crescent while an ambulance was dispatched, then the ambulance went missing and contact with the girl was lost and the IDF were all 'we don't know'?
The Red Cresent have found that the ambulance was bombed, killing the crew, and the girl is dead.
Amongst the daily barbaric slaughter, every once in a while it's a thing like this that cuts through and really fucking upsets me
Not only that Red Crescent say the ambulance was found near the car. That ( as your previous post stated Red Crescent had been in touch with military to gain access to the area.
Before this last war crime the israelis averaged a kill ratio of circa 17 Palestinians for each dead israeli and already we are way beyond that. I fear you may be correct and if god forbid that did occur once again israel would get away with it. Half a million dead in beyond comprehension.
PTK
Paul Kegan
The IDF is " the most moral army in the world"
Hind Rajab, 6, found dead in Gaza days after phone calls for help
Hind Rajab, 6, found dead in Gaza days after phone calls for help
Hind was last heard from trapped in a car under fire, surrounded by bodies of her relatives, 12 days ago.
www.bbc.co.uk
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think their objectives have developed since 7 October. The initial bombardment extracted revenge, with a rough ratio of 10 Palestinian dead for every Israeli achieved. At the time, I hoped the temporary truce might mark the beginning of an end. But others on here with much more pessimistic views have been vindicated. Israel used that time to regroup and solidify their bigger plan. This is no longer about revenge for 7 October, if it ever were primarily. It's no longer about disciplining the Palestinian population by reminding them that 10 of them will die for every Israeli they kill. It is simply using this situation to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip. That's been their end game for a while now. How many they kill and how many are left to be forced out is kind of beside the point. Either will do as long as they are forced out. What is clear is that the Israeli forces taking pot shots at hospitals don't see Palestinians as human beings. The Israeli politicians and generals giving the orders don't see Palestinians as human beings. We saw it on here on Wednesday with the poster danny40, who I strongly suspect was an Israeli govt shill, who didn't see Palestinians as human beings.
Israel is now a rogue genocidal state. I wish the South Africans the best of luck in indicting the US and UK for their ongoing complicity. There are no excuses.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
I suspect the bloke probably is anti-semitic and that he goes beyond anti-Zionism. I'd quibble with the word 'straightforward' though, to make a more general point. There is a statistical imbalance between, say, the Jewish population of the USA and Jewish background representation in Congress (2% of population, 8% of senate).
Congress is now 3 times more Jewish than the United States as a whole - Jewish Telegraphic Agency
The 34 Jewish lawmakers inaugurated Thursday comprise 6 percent of the total in the House and Senate.
www.jta.org
To talk about that as 'over-representation' is at the very least pejorative and quite probably indicates anti-semitism.. But the other side of the coin is that concerns about antisemitism get in the way of an honest view of power and access. Not, I might hasten to add - and even in writing that I'm beginning to feel the anxiety of treading onto dangerous ground - in the sense of antisemitic tropes about Jewish worldwide influence or any of that filth. Quite simply a discussion of why many Western governments have become aligned with Israel and how the potential for accusations of antisemitism play out in that. Taking an obvious example, there certainly was anti-semitism in the Labour Party and wider left, but Corbyn was up against something bigger than that: the right of his own party and a weaponised anti-semitism that wasn't going to stop and till he went. And so it was and here we are with Starmer supporting genocide. Don't get me wrong, I'm not setting up Jewish influence as a malign influence that drove those events as part of a wider narrative. That would be anti-semitic. But equally the potential to be accused of anti-semitism shouldn't be used to stop simple and straightforward analyses of power and international relations. Particularly and obviously at a time like this.
I might also chuck in the treatment of Diane Abbot at this point. Her language/discussion around anti-Jewish prejudice not being the same as racism against black and Asian people was a car crash. There was a point in there about the fate of different communities in Britain, economically and the rest, but she fucked up. But again, the fact that she'd stepped into anti-semitism meant there was no way back. I suspect there might have been if she'd come out with something like 'white people can't be subject to racism' - equally dodgy, but less charged. And I suppose that's my point in this loooong post. I don't want to say things about Jewish people, Judaism, world zionism or any of that - why would I? But accusations of anti-semitism do serve to stop open discussions of actual power.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
I am very sorry to say that I think this horror may have been the plan all along, and by "all along" I mean for some time prior to 7th October. Since this latest government was formed they have fairly consistently spent their time piling up oily rags, half-filled matchboxes and bits of dry wood all over the place.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's certainly fulfilling the long-held ambitions of at least some in government. It feels like the agenda is being set by Itamar Ben-Gvir. It's hard to think of an equivalent to having him as a senior minister in government. He is openly racist and openly genocidal, and has been his whole life. Too extremist even to be conscripted.
This man is Israel's security minister. It's just staggering really that such a man could be anywhere near power.
The Rise of Itamar Ben Gvir
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
I'll wait until they stop sending weapons to Israel. Just disapproval is worth nothing.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
This article draws parallels between David Ben Gurion and Ben Gvir attitude to UN and international obligations of Israel State.
Israel shirked accountability for decades. Is the ICJ breaking its armor?
From Ben Gurion to Ben Gvir, Israel's dismissiveness of international sanctions has held strong. But The Hague may be cracking that impunity.
www.972mag.com
The argument that David Ben Gurion had was with the then PM who opposed idea of taking over Gaza. Later with David Ben Gurion in charge they did as part of UK/ French attack on Egypt over the canal. Then the US and USSR forced Israel to pull back. Different times.
So there is continuity in Israeli state policy over the years. From Labour Zionism to Far right contempt for international community and also wanting to extend Israel borders where possible.
The article goes on to say that this time perhaps State of Israel has taken to much for granted. That this time their might be consequences for its actions. Unlike 48 / 67 and Lebanon.
Led by the global south ( South Africa) / with public opposition to Israel worldwide something might change.
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PTK
Paul Kegan
Thank you for keeping us informed.This article draws parallels between David Ben Gurion and Ben Gvir attitude to UN and international obligations of Israel State.
Israel shirked accountability for decades. Is the ICJ breaking its armor?
From Ben Gurion to Ben Gvir, Israel's dismissiveness of international sanctions has held strong. But The Hague may be cracking that impunity.
The argument that David Ben Gurion had was with the then PM who opposed idea of taking over Gaza. Later with David Ben Gurion in charge they did as part of UK/ French attack on Egypt over the canal. Then the US and USSR forced Israel to pull back. Different times.
So there is continuity in Israeli state policy over the years. From Labour Zionism to Far right contempt for international community and also wanting to extend Israel borders.
The article goes on to say that this time perhaps State of Israel has taken to much for granted. That this time their might be consequences for its actions. Unlike 48 / 67 and Lebanon.
Led by the global south ( South Africa) / with public opposition to Israel worldwide something might change.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Africa no longer a continent that is only acted on, but a continent that itself acts. We've had this before, of course, with Nasser, for example. But a non-aligned global south with real moral leadership is a very welcome development. For all its domestic shortcomings, the South African government's actions here have been pitch-perfect.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I agree. Its one of the positive things that has come out of this. Perhaps beginning of alternative to the hegemony of the West that is progressive.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I wouldn't overstate the case. If you look at, say, gay rights in Africa, South Africa is very much the exception. Most of the continent is not like South Africa. But at least this points to a positive direction of travel.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
This is one of those 'they won't kettle all of us on whitehall' moments when it's been explicitly said that the zionists want to kill fucktons of people but you think they're really trying to persuade the Palestinians to leave.
Where do you think they will go? There are three possible choices, namely the zionist entity, the sea and Egypt. Do any of those strike you as likely? Do you think the Egyptians will open the frontier?
This seems to be heading toward the depopulation of the gaza strip as many many thousands of people are going to starve to death or die of disease. There isn't the shelter in gaza any more to house people. This ends when hundreds of thousands of people are dead, not tens of thousands as we are atm. You don't seem to have grasped the horror of the thing, if forcing people out was on the cards it'd have happened by now.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
This shows everything that is wrong with Labour - This journalist reported on what Campbell said and he didn't like it. So she put up the section of the talk where he told young people who are concerned about Gaza to get off their "high horse" and vote Labour. Its the you have no where else to go contempt that is so annoying. In video he treats it as immature /just at this moment /superficial to be concerned about Gaza. And says next thing young people will jump on is the removal of the green 28 billion. It smacks of this let the adults get on with it and you just vote Labour.
www.standard.co.uk
Alastair Campbell to young voters: 'get off your high horse' over Gaza
He also compared Keir Starmer to Abraham Lincoln and Nelson Mandela
www.standard.co.uk
I realise this is a few days old and I actually half agree with you, but I would say the idea that Israel needs to maintain a demographic Jewish majority against an indigenous population is deeply baked even for the Israeli left. Two state solution, end the occupation, stop "behaving badly" can also mean kerp the Arabs out.
You may regard maintaining a Jewish majority as being separate to the question of the Jewish character of the state. Nobody cares about Anglican majorities in the UK, racist obsessions do not revolve around that; so maybe by drawing that comparison you don't see the Jewish character of the state as being a demographic insistence. I do however think most Jewish Israelis see it that way and that is the conversation in Israel and that's in the Peace Now movement not just Likud and the far right.
I would also say that the current dynamics where the Jewish majority could well turn on the 48 Palestinian minority highlight the need for some system of quasi determination ir duel power. Near formal equality does not help against that political dynamic as it relies on Jewish Israeli liberal values that can and have dissolved.
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