Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Gramsci]

What I have heard recently is the more moderate Israeli view on need for a "demilitarised" Palestinian state talks to re start. This does not include a demilitarised Israel.

This when looked into more is not going to be a state in what any reasonable person might see as a state.

This is what the two state solution is in practise. And why talks stalled years ago. As Palestinians realised that issues around right to return for example were going to be shelved for good. Also settlement building has led to a possible Palestinian state that is split up into sections of West Bank surrounded by illegal settlements. Not a continuous area of land.

This is why some ( including some Israelis) have started to call for one state. Where both Jewish Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights.

 

[Pickman's model]

What I have heard recently is the more moderate Israeli view on need for a "demilitarised" Palestinian state talks to re start. This does not include a demilitarised Israel.

This when looked into more is not going to be a state in what any reasonable person might see as a state.

This is what the two state solution is in practise. And why talks stalled years ago. As Palestinians realised that issues around right to return for example were going to be shelved for good. Also settlement building has led to a possible Palestinian state that is split up into sections of West Bank surrounded by illegal settlements. Not a continuous area of land.

This is why some ( including some Israelis) have started to call for one state. Where both Jewish Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights.

That's a non-starter if zionists wish to retain the sullied name of Israel

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's a non-starter if zionists wish to retain the sullied name of Israel

This is the kind of thing that can be overcome with a little imagination. There are moves in New Zealand to incorporate Aotearoa as part of its official name. May happen some time soon. Something like that could be done with Israel-Palestine. Two official names. Why not? Those wishing to call themselves Israelis could then continue to do so.

If the biggest sticking point is the name of the new country, you know you've made incredible progress.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is the kind of thing that can be overcome with a little imagination. There are moves in New Zealand to incorporate Aotearoa as part of its official name. May happen some time soon. Something like that could be done with Israel-Palestine. Two official names. Why not? Those wishing to call themselves Israelis could then continue to do so.

If the biggest sticking point is the name of the new country, you know you've made incredible progress.

Yeh well it's clearly not the biggest sticking point

 

[Aladdin]

I wouldn't be surprised if the displacement of Palestinians and their concentration in rafah was done by design, not to force the Palestinians out of the gaza strip but to create a situation in which there is nowhere for them left to go and they can be killed in such numbers as would in bn's view teach the Palestinians such a lesson as would reverberate down the generations. Didn't he say something like that near the start of the genocide? Even if this ended now and adequate supplies of food medicine and water entered gaza, you're still looking at tens of thousands more deaths. The destruction of the buildings imo precedes the destruction of the people,possibly accompanied by forced marches, the 'evacuation plan'. None of this is a mistake by the zionists, this is all being done quite deliberately and makes me long for the extinguishing of the state of Israel. How many dead will satisfy their blood lust? I'm quite convinced an eighth to a quarter of the gazans will be dead by the end of this, maybe more

The zionists are such scum

I've felt that this was Netanyahu's plan for a while now.
It's pretty obvious he is going to kill many more Gazans and leave thousands more to starve and die in Rafah.

What I cannot fathom is the fact that the Israelis must have so much influence over the mainstream media. Ireland has had full on protests weekly. People are shouting from the rooftops about this genocide. I switch on any western station and they are all singing from the same page.

Why is the world afraid of Israel?

Why are western media not showing what Israel is doing to the people in Gaza?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I've felt that this was Netanyahu's plan for a while now.
It's pretty obvious he is going to kill many more Gazans and leave thousands more to starve and die in Rafah.

What I cannot fathom is the fact that the Israelis must have so much influence over the mainstream media. Ireland has had full on protests weekly. People are shouting from the rooftops about this genocide. I switch on any western station and they are all singing from the same page.

Why is the world afraid of Israel?

Good article by Kenan Malik in the Grauniad today addresses this topic. It is in very large part an overcorrection due to guilt over the Holocaust, I think.

Criticism of Israel, often from Jews, has long been suppressed, so it's nothing new. It almost seems to be an unthinking reflex. Certainly the nonsense in Germany right now has precious little thought behind it.

Germany has proscribed many criticisms of Israel (such as describing its treatment of Palestinians as “apartheid”) and banned many expressions of solidarity with the Palestinian cause. The main targets have been Muslims, but Jewish supporters of Palestinian rights have also been deplatformed and arrested. According to the researcher Emily Dische-Becker, almost a third of those cancelled in Germany for their supposed antisemitism have been Jews. There is, as the Israeli-born architect and academic Eyal Weizman has acidly put it, a certain irony in “being lectured [on how to be properly Jewish] by the children and grandchildren of the perpetrators who murdered our families and who now dare to tell us that we are antisemitic”.

Denouncing critics of Israel as ‘un-Jews’ or antisemites is a perversion of history | Kenan Malik

It is quite mad that it should be illegal in Germany to call Israel an apartheid state. It's quite scary, in fact.

 

[Aladdin]

Good article by Kenan Malik in the Grauniad today addresses this topic. It is in very large part an overcorrection due to guilt over the Holocaust, I think.

Criticism of Israel, often from Jews, has long been suppressed, so it's nothing new. It almost seems to be an unthinking reflex. Certainly the nonsense in Germany right now has precious little thought behind it.



Denouncing critics of Israel as ‘un-Jews’ or antisemites is a perversion of history | Kenan Malik

It is quite mad that it should be illegal in Germany to call Israel an apartheid state. It's quite scary, in fact.

Thanks for this..
It's very scary.
Terrifying..

I follow Middle East Eye news and Al Jazeera.. And what they show on a daily basis is truly appalling.

The lies that Netanhayu and Israel have told make it very difficult to believe that he and the IDF are following anything resembling rules of war. They persist in this public narrative that they will have humanitarian corridors... .and then what transpires is the IDF shoots or blows up people trying to escape or move along any direction that is supposed to be safe.
I read the other day that IDF soldiers/ snipers picked off kids one by one cheering as they did so.
I've read about a family waving white flags to try to cross a supposedly safe zone and then suddenly the elderly woman who is clearly an old lady is shot by a sniper.

The head of the alshifa hospital is being tortured to make him admit that Hamas used the place. He is denying this. I mean Christ where are the humanitarians?
its as if the SA claim to the ICJ has just fallen on deaf ears...

1 million in Rafah now. No way out. And Netanyahu is saying there a safe corridor.. but I dont believe he is going to let those people out safely
. I think he will send troops in and that they will behave as they have for the past 4 months. Netanyahu doesnt even care thatbhe is bombing Israeli hostages.

I honestly do not see Netanyahu stopping until the IDF has complete control of Gaza and then they will target the West Bank. He is on a genocidal mission And a land grabbing mission.
And the world is letting him carry on.

 

[teqniq]

Interesting thread here, please give it a read:

Thread by @BanGaoRen on Thread Reader App

@BanGaoRen: 🧵 Just got off the phone to a relative in Israel. An update on the situation from their perspective. First off the bat, despite the Govt and it's client media's onslaught of propaganda the most success...…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Interesting thread here, please give it a read:

Thread by @BanGaoRen on Thread Reader App

@BanGaoRen: 🧵 Just got off the phone to a relative in Israel. An update on the situation from their perspective. First off the bat, despite the Govt and it's client media's onslaught of propaganda the most success...…

threadreaderapp.com

Very interesting: and good to see Barghouti getting a mention

 

[teqniq]

Please sign and share:

Petition: Immediately revoke all licences for arms exports to Israel

The UK is complicit in arming Israel, and many regard Israel to be committing war crimes.

petition.parliament.uk

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Interesting thread here, please give it a read:

Thread by @BanGaoRen on Thread Reader App

@BanGaoRen: 🧵 Just got off the phone to a relative in Israel. An update on the situation from their perspective. First off the bat, despite the Govt and it's client media's onslaught of propaganda the most success...…

threadreaderapp.com

Yes, it's certainly my impression that Smotrich and Ben Gvir are driving the agenda. And Netanyahu is hopefully on the brink of oblivion of one kind or another. In his insistence that they will continue into Rafah, he may sound confident and defiant, but I suspect it is cover for an exponentially growing fear and desperation and that he doesn't actually know how to end this. It's like he is surviving from day to day with no thought beyond that.

 

[Knotted]

I wouldn't be surprised if the displacement of Palestinians and their concentration in rafah was done by design, not to force the Palestinians out of the gaza strip but to create a situation in which there is nowhere for them left to go and they can be killed in such numbers as would in bn's view teach the Palestinians such a lesson as would reverberate down the generations. Didn't he say something like that near the start of the genocide? Even if this ended now and adequate supplies of food medicine and water entered gaza, you're still looking at tens of thousands more deaths. The destruction of the buildings imo precedes the destruction of the people,possibly accompanied by forced marches, the 'evacuation plan'. None of this is a mistake by the zionists, this is all being done quite deliberately and makes me long for the extinguishing of the state of Israel. How many dead will satisfy their blood lust? I'm quite convinced an eighth to a quarter of the gazans will be dead by the end of this, maybe more

The zionists are such scum

That's been my thinking since they switched off the food/water/power and then bombed the hospitals and bakeries. They were never going to leave a part of Gaza untouched. The question is how far the Americans are willing to go. Biden can stop it if he wants to.

I think Israel will keep going because if they don't they will look weak. America will also look weak if they abandon a key ally under pressure. There's a momentum pushing the slaughter forward in that protagonists feel they can't lose face in front of Iran, China, Russia etc. It's like a machine with people caught up in it. 7th October showed that the Israeli army could be taken on and defeated by a rag tag force like Hamas. Israel's ability to destroy civilian infrastructure and life is its main deterence.

Having said that there are other possibilities such as Egypt under pressure may end evacuated the population. The US may end up calling a halt as their diplomatic web of international alliances can no longer hold. I really don't know.

It really is grim watching it unfold. I think we're into the last desperate straight now.

 

[Knotted]

What I have heard recently is the more moderate Israeli view on need for a "demilitarised" Palestinian state talks to re start. This does not include a demilitarised Israel.

This when looked into more is not going to be a state in what any reasonable person might see as a state.

This is what the two state solution is in practise. And why talks stalled years ago. As Palestinians realised that issues around right to return for example were going to be shelved for good. Also settlement building has led to a possible Palestinian state that is split up into sections of West Bank surrounded by illegal settlements. Not a continuous area of land.

This is why some ( including some Israelis) have started to call for one state. Where both Jewish Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights.

That's been the talk for decades. The Americans are still talking that talk (and it was always just talk) which is why they're still quite sensitive about egregious settler violence in the West Bank. Israel has moved on now though I think. We're in to a new, more violent, phase.

 

[agricola]

That's been my thinking since they switched off the food/water/power and then bombed the hospitals and bakeries. They were never going to leave a part of Gaza untouched. The question is how far the Americans are willing to go. Biden can stop it if he wants to.

I think Israel will keep going because if they don't they will look weak. America will also look weak if they abandon a key ally under pressure. There's a momentum pushing the slaughter forward in that protagonists feel they can't lose face in front of Iran, China, Russia etc. It's like a machine with people caught up in it. 7th October showed that the Israeli army could be taken on and defeated by a rag tag force like Hamas. Israel's ability to destroy civilian infrastructure and life is its main deterence.

Having said that there are other possibilities such as Egypt under pressure may end evacuated the population. The US may end up calling a halt as their diplomatic web of international alliances can no longer hold. I really don't know.

It really is grim watching it unfold. I think we're into the last desperate straight now.

They'll certainly be called weak by the domestic US press and politicians if they do that, but what makes America look weak (and Biden specifically) is how the Israeli government reacts to the US.

The US pours money, materiel and diplomatic support on behalf of Netanyahu and gets nothing in return except massive internal political interference and the international system the US dominates being eroded. Any US policy, diplomatic effort, quiet word in the ear or whatever that is not in the interests of the current government is publicly ignored. Biden himself told the Israeli government that settler violence was unacceptable and not only did Ben-Gvir say he was lying, he also said Trump would have prevented October 7th happening in the first place and would have given them carte blanche to do whatever they wanted anyway. They are, to use a phrase, openly pissing in the chips belonging to the US.

 

[Knotted]

They'll certainly be called weak by the domestic US press and politicians if they do that, but what makes America look weak (and Biden specifically) is how the Israeli government reacts to the US.

The US pours money, materiel and diplomatic support on behalf of Netanyahu and gets nothing in return except massive internal political interference and the international system the US dominates being eroded. Any US policy, diplomatic effort, quiet word in the ear or whatever that is not in the interests of the current government is publicly ignored. Biden himself told the Israeli government that settler violence was unacceptable and not only did Ben-Gvir say he was lying, he also said Trump would have prevented October 7th happening in the first place and would have given them carte blanche to do whatever they wanted anyway. They are, to use a phrase, openly pissing in the chips belonging to the US.

I think they want to quietly shift their focus away from the Middle East and Israel. Obama was talking about a pivot to Asia. But they want to do it on their own terms, not under fire. I think this is also one of the factors driving Israel on its course, as this maybe the last time they get unconditional US backing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think they want to quietly shift their focus away from the Middle East and Israel. Obama was talking about a pivot to Asia. But they want to do it on their own terms, not under fire. I think this is also one of the factors driving Israel on its course, as this maybe the last time they get unconditional US backing.

Agree with agricola, though. The US already looks very weak. The tail is clearly wagging the dog and the dog doesn't know what to do about it. I get the impression that the US has sleepwalked into this situation (sorry, mixing my metaphors). They didn't fully understand how the extreme right had taken over the Israeli government.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's been my thinking since they switched off the food/water/power and then bombed the hospitals and bakeries. They were never going to leave a part of Gaza untouched. The question is how far the Americans are willing to go. Biden can stop it if he wants to.

I think Israel will keep going because if they don't they will look weak. America will also look weak if they abandon a key ally under pressure. There's a momentum pushing the slaughter forward in that protagonists feel they can't lose face in front of Iran, China, Russia etc. It's like a machine with people caught up in it. 7th October showed that the Israeli army could be taken on and defeated by a rag tag force like Hamas. Israel's ability to destroy civilian infrastructure and life is its main deterence.

Having said that there are other possibilities such as Egypt under pressure may end evacuated the population. The US may end up calling a halt as their diplomatic web of international alliances can no longer hold. I really don't know.

It really is grim watching it unfold. I think we're into the last desperate straight now.

The Egyptians said that would cancel their peace agreement with the zionists

 

[Knotted]

I try to avoid Nazi comparisons but I watched Come and See just before this all kicked off and the images of that film are fresh in my mind. Everytime I see Tiktok IDF soldiers dicking about amid the slaughter I think of the German soldiers dicking about as they burn the Belarusian villagers.

 

[Knotted]

Agree with agricola, though. The US already looks very weak. The tail is clearly wagging the dog and the dog doesn't know what to do about it. I get the impression that the US has sleepwalked into this situation (sorry, mixing my metaphors). They didn't fully understand how the extreme right had taken over the Israeli government.

Well what does an extreme right government mean internationally? Pretty much the same as a centre left government as long as they don't make it clear they're abandoning the two state solution and Netanyahu has always been politic on that. 7th October changed that and nobody expected that.

 

[Gramsci]

That's been the talk for decades. The Americans are still talking that talk (and it was always just talk) which is why they're still quite sensitive about egregious settler violence in the West Bank. Israel has moved on now though I think. We're in to a new, more violent, phase.

There is the as you say egregious settler violence from Gush Emunim religious extremists. They are a distraction imo.

The ongoing annexation of West Bank has been going on since 67. First ten years under Labour Zionism.

Unlike what is happening in Gaza now or what happened in 48 what has been happening in West Bank is incremental ethnic cleansing. Using a legal structure set up by the occupying forces ( against all International law on military occupation) for the gradual expulsion of Palestinians to be replaced by Jews.

From the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe book The Biggest Prison on Earth page 243

The West Bank, 2005–2017 By 2007, 40 per cent of the West Bank was already under direct rule by Israel; or, in other words, annexed, for all intents and purposes, to Israel. Within this 40 per cent Israel solidified its presence with barriers, military bases and closed military areas (cynically, Israel declared them nature reserves).14 This policy focused on Area C of the West Bank and its main purpose was to downsize the Palestinian population there (there were also calls from senior Israeli politicians to annex the area). In 1967 around 300,000 Palestinians lived in Area C; today there are a mere 50,000. The Jewish population has increased from about a thousand in 1967 to more than 400,000 today.

Watching Al Jazeera and now in West Bank IDF are using "security reasons" to take over land.

These are all well tried and tested techniques of Zionism. Use a crisis as an opportunity so to speak. Use legal methods. Inherited from British Mandate years and "interpretation" of Ottoman laws. And of course "security reasons " to take land.

As Pappe rightly says Zionism is land plus demographics.

Their is no such thing as a Zionist state with Palestinians in it on equal basis.

The West Bank after 67 was a problem. So gradual ethnic cleansing plus a so called peace process which would only lead to some form of self government in specific small areas for Palestinians was to Pappe the "Open Prison" model.

With good behaviour Palestinians would be allowed to run things like schools etc.

This is what the moderate Zionists and the Labour party here as well as possibly the Tories and Biden see as a resolution to the conflict.

The Palestinians have not behaved in Gaza so in this case its being used as opportunity to remove them for good.

Israel has tried to get Gaza and Sinai before. Under David Ben Gurion. Not always successfully. Getting land has always been something that has pushed Zionism. I think it is perhaps a mistake to focus to much on the present government and Netanyahu.

The history of Israel encompasses clearly violent phases ( Nakba) with more gradual violent phases ( structural violence of occupation)

 

[two sheds]

Interesting thread here, please give it a read:

Thread by @BanGaoRen on Thread Reader App

@BanGaoRen: 🧵 Just got off the phone to a relative in Israel. An update on the situation from their perspective. First off the bat, despite the Govt and it's client media's onslaught of propaganda the most success...…

threadreaderapp.com

the number of gravely injured IDF is in "tens of thousands"

 

[Pickman's model]

the number of gravely injured IDF is in "tens of thousands"

If only that were the case

 

[teqniq]

If only that were the case

I must admit I thought that was a ridiculously high figure in what was otherwise a fairly informative thread, but who really knows? It's bound to be higher than the IDF would like to admit though.

 

[Gramsci]

Good article by Kenan Malik in the Grauniad today addresses this topic. It is in very large part an overcorrection due to guilt over the Holocaust, I think.

Criticism of Israel, often from Jews, has long been suppressed, so it's nothing new. It almost seems to be an unthinking reflex. Certainly the nonsense in Germany right now has precious little thought behind it.



Denouncing critics of Israel as ‘un-Jews’ or antisemites is a perversion of history | Kenan Malik

It is quite mad that it should be illegal in Germany to call Israel an apartheid state. It's quite scary, in fact.

I did not think it was up to his usual standard. On the head of Harvard he says this:

In the US, both themes are visible in the fallout from the Claudine Gay debacle at Harvard University. Gay, as Harvard president, gave a calamitous performance in December at a congressional committee on antisemitism. She was subsequently forced to resign, after critics discovered plagiarism in her scholarly work.

Not my reading of what happened. She did her job correctly and was hounded out. Also there was imo a nasty side of her being a Black women that got the right in US to use this to attack her.

Sorry but Kenan Malik is normally good. On this I'm not with him

 

[Gramsci]

Interesting thread here, please give it a read:

Thread by @BanGaoRen on Thread Reader App

@BanGaoRen: 🧵 Just got off the phone to a relative in Israel. An update on the situation from their perspective. First off the bat, despite the Govt and it's client media's onslaught of propaganda the most success...…

threadreaderapp.com

Same view here:

Israel should free Marwan Barghouti. He is crucial to any hope of a longterm peace | Jo-Ann Mort

The Palestinian nationalist, jailed for violence in the Second Intifada, may be the key to negotiating a two-state solution

www.theguardian.com

The problem with it is that it sounds reasonable but its not dealing with the major issues.

Yes some Israelis hate the right in Israel. The answer "demilitarised" Palestinian state.

Also the hope of liberal supporters of Israel like her is releasing Marwan Barghouti. On basis he is a "reformed" character.

Opinion polls in Palestine put him above Hamas if election to PA ever happens. Abbas is totally discredited.

What this support for him forgets is that even though he is secular he before prison was full on opposing the Zionists in the Intifada.

That is why he is credible leader for Palestinians.

This whole line of thought from liberal supporters of Israel goes like this. Netanyahu and the right helped Hamas to discredit the secular PLO / Fatah and others for their own pursuit of power.

If only the liberal Zionist supporters had been in power and they could have dealt with the secular Palestinians.

Hamas in this view never did have Palestinians support.

 

[belboid]

He (Malik) is not usually very good at all. Statements that would be considered generally bland if they weren't in such a wet newspaper. Lot of leaps between examples he gives and the conclusions he draws.

 

[Humberto]

This is just a real time horror show. It's already done. It will cascade over centuries to bad effect. I know I grandstand and state the obvious but this is fucking atrocious, and locks in a never ending horror for everyone in the region and all their accomplaces in their own countries. Still I guess you were the big man when your support was 'unequivocal'. Fuck off into the lake of lava forever if you are so clever you fucking Judas.

 

[ska invita]

That's been my thinking since they switched off the food/water/power and then bombed the hospitals and bakeries. They were never going to leave a part of Gaza untouched. The question is how far the Americans are willing to go. Biden can stop it if he wants to.

I think Israel will keep going because if they don't they will look weak. America will also look weak if they abandon a key ally under pressure. There's a momentum pushing the slaughter forward in that protagonists feel they can't lose face in front of Iran, China, Russia etc. It's like a machine with people caught up in it. 7th October showed that the Israeli army could be taken on and defeated by a rag tag force like Hamas. Israel's ability to destroy civilian infrastructure and life is its main deterence.

Having said that there are other possibilities such as Egypt under pressure may end evacuated the population. The US may end up calling a halt as their diplomatic web of international alliances can no longer hold. I really don't know.

It really is grim watching it unfold. I think we're into the last desperate straight now.

Disagree on a few points:

I don't think Israel is motivated to ethic cleansing in order to avoid "looking weak", they're motivated by hatred of Palestinians and wanting to expel and exterminate them to seize the territory, simple as that

It would take a lot for the US to stop what is happening, much more than some aid withdrawal. Israel is not about to pull back here and I don't believe the US will use it's power. Last important announcement from Biden was they've got till November.

I also don't see this as nearing the end, it is the beginning. Destroying Rafah is the end of chapter one of bombing and invading Gaza, they've reached the southern border, but to be followed by occupation and the continuance of ethnic cleansing, a longer and equally brutal process.

I also see the chance of Egypt changing it's stance in low single figure percentage points.

Of course anything can happen at anytime in any place in the world, can't rule anything out, but all the signs point to more of the same but with less bombing and more starvation

 

[ska invita]

They (the US) didn't fully understand how the extreme right had taken over the Israeli government.

I find it hard-to-impossible to believe the endless ranks of US planners and advisors don't know what they are dealing with here. Professional realpolitik is not sentimental. I don't think naivety explains US policy here.

I think it's best characterised by ultimately not giving a fuck about Palestinians... There's not actually any historical record of the west ever giving the slightest care. The west also hates Hamas and is at permanent war with Hamas allies. Palestinians have zero political leverage. Majority of US voters either don't care or are on board... Not much blowback. The erasure of Palestine and total dominance of Israel is not a strategic disaster for the west, it's the logical endpoint of decades of policy.

 

[Pickman's model]

Disagree on a few points:

I don't think Israel is motivated to ethic cleansing in order to avoid "looking weak", they're motivated by hatred of Palestinians and wanting to expel and exterminate them to seize the territory, simple as that

It would take a lot for the US to stop what is happening, much more than some aid withdrawal. Israel is not about to pull back here and I don't believe the US will use it's power. Last important announcement from Biden was they've got till November.

I also don't see this as nearing the end, it is the beginning. Destroying Rafah is the end of chapter one of bombing and invading Gaza, they've reached the southern border, but to be followed by occupation and the continuance of ethnic cleansing, a longer and equally brutal process.

I also see the chance of Egypt changing it's stance in low single figure percentage points.

Of course anything can happen at anytime in any place in the world, can't rule anything out, but all the signs point to more of the same but with less bombing and more starvation

I don't think they're really interested in the territory as such or they wouldn't be risking making the aquifer utterly useless. They're much more interested in making rafah a charnel house.