Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Gramsci]

It's not a Jewish state. It's the Jewish state.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/final-text-of-jewish-nation-state-bill-set-to-become-law/

Been heavily opposed by the Israeli Palestinians.

See here the legal group that helped put together a petition to reverse it,

Israel's Jewish Nation-State Law - Adalah

The Israeli Knesset voted on 19 July 2018 by a margin of 62 to 55 to approve the Jewish Nation-State Basic Law, constitutionally enshrining Jewish supremacy and the identity of the State of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people. This law – which has distinct apartheid...

www.adalah.org

From Palestinian Israeli point of view the nation state bill reinforces an apartheid state in law.

Israel’s Jewish Nation-State Law is the “law of laws”, capable of overriding any ordinary legislation. It alters the constitutional framework of the state, making changes that violate established international norms: there is no democratic constitution in the world that designates the constitutional identity of the state on racial grounds, as serving one ethnic group.

It defines Israel as Eretz Israel - so includes West Bank.

It also says settlement building is a good thing

 

[Gramsci]

In short, everyone but Israel gets to decide what Israel is and shall be.

The Zionists who have been running Israel for years have had a good run about deciding what the land Israel is on should be.

Perhaps its time others had a voice.

In short not just one voice in the future

 

[Gramsci]

Two states based on 1967 borders. All settlements built since, gone (or handed over as homes for palestinians). Full international recognition of Palestine, all UN resolutions to be obeyed.

That's where I'd start, but like 'ceasefire now' it's just whistling in the wind.

As far as I know the really old UN General Assembly Resolution 194 on right to return still holds. Are you sure you mean all UN resolutions?

All settlements gone? Many Israelis now regard that as part of Israel - you just criticised me for by implying I'm as good as saying everyone but Israel can decide the future and then you make this statement. Saying all settlements must go.

I'm not getting what you are going on about here.

 

[PTK]

Should the people who live in Northern Cyprus be the only people who get to decide its status?

 

[mojo pixy]

The Zionists who have been running Israel for years have had a good run about deciding what the land Israel is on should be.

Perhaps its time others had a voice.

In short not just one voice in the future

You do realise ten million people live there, right? Not just one or two. There are already millions of people who get to decide on who gets power, for better or worse. Israel is as much of a democracy as the UK is, more, probably. Public meetings are way more common than they are here, for example. Maybe right now that might not be true but till recently it definitely was. And they have PR in elections. Again, this all feels like judging one country by a special standard we don't apply to others.

As far as I know the really old UN General Assembly Resolution 194 on right to return still holds. Are you sure you mean all UN resolutions?

I wouldn't have written it if I didn't mean it. This is so fucking patronising

I'm not getting what you are going on about here

Well I can only explain it to you, I can't understand it for you. Since we've hit the patronising bit where we talk past each other.

I'm having a break now.

 

[SpookyFrank]

You do realise ten million people live there, right? Not just one or two. There are already millions of people who get to decide on who gets power, for better or worse. Israel is as much of a democracy as the UK is, more, probably. Public meetings are way more common than they are here, for example. Maybe right now that might not be true but till recently it definitely was. And they have PR in elections. Again, this all feels like judging one country by a special standard we don't apply to others.

Everyone gets a vote apart from the millions living under perpetual occupation, neither allowed citizenship nor self-determination.

That doesn't apply to many other countries, and none that outside observers would describe as model democracies with an apparently straight face.

 

[Gramsci]

six years ago there were 65+ laws that directly or inderectly discriminate against Palestinians within Israel and the OPT. Thats before the ones brought in by this far-right government.

There are laws to stop Arab parties from running in the election; criminal indictments by police against Arab politicians for participating in demonstrations; and a recent law allowing 80 Knesset members (out of 120) to expel their colleagues from the parliament, among others.

The Discriminatory Laws Database - Adalah

Adalah’s Discriminatory Laws Database (DLD) is an online resource comprising a list of over 65 Israeli laws that discriminate directly or indirectly against Palestinian citizens in Israel and/or Palestinian residents of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) on the basis of their national...

www.adalah.org

Thanks that is a useful link.

Article from the website by someone who used to work for Adalah. Old but relevant: On the push for the nation state law. Pointing out for Palestinians Israel never was a democracy.

The redundancy of Israel's 'Jewish Nation-State Law' - +972 Magazine

The Israeli government is pushing a law that would force judges to prioritize Israel’s Jewish character over democratic principles. But that has always been the case. The “Jewish Nation-State Law,” which is currently making its way through the Knesset as a proposed Basic Law – the closest thing...

www.972mag.com

The High Court, of course, has its many nuances and internal disputes. But the myth of a fundamental clash between the government and the judiciary, and the belief that Israel has a healthy system of checks and balances, distracts from the fact that there is more that unites the two bodies than divides them.

Moreover, the court’s nuances have done little for the people who suffer most from its rulings – Palestinians in the occupied territories and Palestinian citizens of Israel, along with non-Jewish refugees and asylum seekers, and, increasingly, dissenting Jewish-Israelis. No one should be fooled into believing that democracy is being threatened by this new law; for a large number of Israel’s subjects, democracy has never actually existed.

 

[klang]

I'm having a break now.

For various reasons I'm more of an onlooker / observer / listener than an active contributor on this thread, but I find your thoughts and posts incredibly informative and important. I definitely don't agree with everything you say, but i always think 'worth reading and thinking about' when i see your name.
I hope you come back very soon.

 

[Pickman's model]

You do realise ten million people live there, right? Not just one or two. There are already millions of people who get to decide on who gets power, for better or worse. Israel is as much of a democracy as the UK is, more, probably. Public meetings are way more common than they are here, for example. Maybe right now that might not be true but till recently it definitely was. And they have PR in elections. Again, this all feels like judging one country by a special standard we don't apply to others.


I wouldn't have written it if I didn't mean it. This is so fucking patronising


Well I can only explain it to you, I can't understand it for you. Since we've hit the patronising bit where we talk past each other.

I'm having a break now.

Yeh take a break but do come back

 

[danny40]

Everyone gets a vote apart from the millions living under perpetual occupation, neither allowed citizenship nor self-determination.

That doesn't apply to many other countries, and none that outside observers would describe as model democracies with an apparently straight face.

Why would they have a vote as they not part of the Israel nation, even though they are occupying the land. Problem about such statements like yours are they are impractical and impossible to take seriously. If the millions of Palestinians were able to vote in Israel, there wouldn't be an Israel as there would vote in a Islamist terrorist group to government.

Regarding there self-determination, they were given Gaza if you remember and within months destroyed all the infrastructure left behind and voted in a terrorist government. It may not have been an official state as you would like, but it gave them a chance to show that they could live side by side and they showed their true colours. Complaining about a blockade is also a ridiculous argument. Why the hell would Israel allow Palestinians access to Israel when they pose a significant security threat, they would be stupid to allow that. Evidence being that many of the Palestinians who worked in Israel in the areas affected on October 7th passed on info to Hamas for the attack which has been proved before you try to deny it.

 

[Serge Forward]

 

[klang]

If the millions of Palestinians were able to vote in Israel, there wouldn't be an Israel as there would vote in a Islamist terrorist group to government.

Are you sure you thought this through?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

'They were given Gaza'

Yeah, ungrateful shits.

 

[danny40]

The Zionists who have been running Israel for years have had a good run about deciding what the land Israel is on should be.

Perhaps its time others had a voice.

In short not just one voice in the future

Referring to people who believe in a Jewish land derogatorily as Zionists is pathetic. Jews have the right to want a Jewish state, particularly one which historically was Jewish 3000 years ago before the word Palestine even existed. Who exactly do you propose should have a voice about what Israel should be? Let me guess, the UN or Palestinians?

 

[danny40]

'They were given Gaza'

Yeah, ungrateful shits.

Well I know that you want them to get the whole of Israel, but it ain't aver going to happen so don't waste your time. Most of the Palestinians today moved to the area after Israel became an official state from many other Aran countries so I guess they are also occupying the land in that case.

 

[belboid]

the view of our new poster explains exactly why Israel will never agree to a two state solution. It is the same view put forward (very slightly more coherently) by Vernon Bogdanor (leading Brit constitutionalist) the other day. And it has an element of truth to it. Whilst Israel is crippling any possible Palestinian state, people there are more likely to turn to reactionary alternatives who oppose that Israeli state. It would enforce the divisions and ensure there could be no 'reconciliation.' Which is why there has to be a single secular state where every can have an equal say (which is, technically at least, what has happened on those other settler-colonial states referred to before).

 

[danny40]

Are you sure you thought this through?

Well what do you think would happen if Millions of Palestinians were able to vote in the elections then?

 

[belboid]

Referring to people who believe in a Jewish land derogatorily as Zionists is pathetic. Jews have the right to want a Jewish state, particularly one which historically was Jewish 3000 years ago before the word Palestine even existed. Who exactly do you propose should have a voice about what Israel should be? Let me guess, the UN or Palestinians?

I'm off to stake my claim to Norway. My people lived there before the word Norway was even invented.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well what do you think would happen if Millions of Palestinians were able to vote in the elections then?

There would be a sudden outbreak of democracy.

 

[danny40]

the view of our new poster explains exactly why Israel will never agree to a two state solution. It is the same view put forward (very slightly more coherently) by Vernon Bogdanor (leading Brit constitutionalist) the other day. And it has an element of truth to it. Whilst Israel is crippling any possible Palestinian state, people there are more likely to turn to reactionary alternatives who oppose that Israeli state. It would enforce the divisions and ensure there could be no 'reconciliation.' Which is why there has to be a single secular state where every can have an equal say (which is, technically at least, what has happened on those other settler-colonial states referred to before).

A single state will never happen and can't happen so it's an unrealistic pipedream. The Jews and Palestinians will never be able to coexist in peace. Some of the solutions I have seen to the conflict are beyond ridiculous.

 

[belboid]

A single state will never happen and can't happen so it's an unrealistic pipedream. The Jews and Palestinians will never be able to coexist in peace. Some of the solutions I have seen to the conflict are beyond ridiculous.

wow. Fuck off you racist shit.

 

[danny40]

Lol, okay then, like the rest of the Middle East then, oh wait.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A single state will never happen and can't happen so it's an unrealistic pipedream. The Jews and Palestinians will never be able to coexist in peace. Some of the solutions I have seen to the conflict are beyond ridiculous.

So the solution is what? Genocide?

 

[danny40]

Well how far do you decide to go back in history to decide who has a right to land. It seems many of you have miraculously gone back just enough to suit your agenda.

 

[klang]

what brought you here, danny40 , how did you find us and why did you sign up?

 

[teqniq]

We seemed to have acquired a hasbara troll.

 

[agricola]

Well how far do you decide to go back in history to decide who has a right to land. It seems many of you have miraculously gone back just enough to suit your agenda.

Weren't you the one who picked 3000 years out of thin air just before this? Why not go back 3500 years, or 4000?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well how far do you decide to go back in history to decide who has a right to land. It seems many of you have miraculously gone back just enough to suit your agenda.

I choose to go back 50,000 years to the time when (some of) my ancestors were driven into Europe. You prefer 3,000 years. Others choose 75 years.

Whose 'agenda' has the most merit?

 

[klang]

I'm sure there is room for all of us in the Rift Valley

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm sure there is room for all of us in the Rift Valley

Except the people living there right now. They've got to go. Clearly don't belong there.