Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[lazythursday]

I think we do have to accept that the establishment of the State of Israel came at the tail end of the colonial period when both the idea of settlement of occupied land and / or the mass transfer of whole populations was politically / culturally acceptable in a way that it isn't now. At the same time as the Palestinians were being expelled huge populations of Germans were forced to leave eastern European countries (the percentage of GDR citizens that were refugees is pretty astonishing). That's not to justify it but place it in a historical context. But it's as if Israel has stayed stuck in that colonial groove while the rest of the world has, on the whole, moved on and started to recognise the wrongs.

 

[Gramsci]

Israel-Gaza war: Unknown fate of six-year-old Hind Rajab trapped under fire

Six-year-old Hind was last heard from trapped in a car surrounded by bodies - then the line went dead.

www.bbc.co.uk

This one incident sums up how IDF and Israeli government have been prosecuting this attack on Gaza

Telling people to move, people desperately seeking safe area shot / shelled, access to emergency services trying to help people restricted.

When asked what happened IDF are unable/ don't want to answer.

At time when article was written the ambulance crew sent to save the six year old girl ( the last alive in the car ) is missing. Despite permission sought with IDF by Red Crescent.

 

[mojo pixy]

Except that Palestinians in Israel have always been second class citizens. Living under military rule until late 1960s. This under Labour Zionism.

The more recent " Basic law" reinforces this second class status.

It's also arguable that in reality Palestinians in West Bank should count being in Israeli state. Since 1967 the settlement building ( started under Labour Zionism and continued to this day)means that its temporary occupation in name only. West Bank is in effect part of Israeli state. Israeli law applies to settlement areas and those living in settlements can vote.

How do you judge 'second class citizens'? Can't work? They can. Cant claim state benefits, get a pension etc? They can. Can't vote? They can. Can't have a passport and come and go at will? They can. Can't own a home, a business? They can.

They don't have to do military service, that's true.That's a disadvantage, but Jewish Israelis can refuse to serve too, and face the same social disadvantages from refusing.

And in other 'settler states', are indigenous people treated 100% equally? Whataboutery, I know, but my point is that 'settler states' must all be judged by the same standards.

I'm not on about people living inside 'the green line', everyone knows their treatment has been and is unacceptable. But in Yafo, Akko, Haifa, Beersheva, Nazareth, Tiberias etc, the inhabitants here are Israeli in every way that matters.

 

[mojo pixy]

I think we do have to accept that the establishment of the State of Israel came at the tail end of the colonial period when both the idea of settlement of occupied land and / or the mass transfer of whole populations was politically / culturally acceptable in a way that it isn't now. At the same time as the Palestinians were being expelled huge populations of Germans were forced to leave eastern European countries (the percentage of GDR citizens that were refugees is pretty astonishing). That's not to justify it but place it in a historical context. But it's as if Israel has stayed stuck in that colonial groove while the rest of the world has, on the whole, moved on and started to recognise the wrongs.

We did that - worse, even - we built an empire out of it! Became one of the richest countries ever, ever! Created a massive hegemony and capitalism that still strangles the global south! But now we've moved on, we're advanced now, so you need to catch up.

It's a bit .. hypocritical imo.

Anyway, CEASEFIRE NOW

 

[mojo pixy]

I don't even want to be having this argument, making these points. But someone has to or this thread will become a fucking cesspool.

 

[8ball]

But now we've moved on...

Many of the posters in the UK would raise a querying hand here.

 

[teqniq]

This is just disgusting:

Pizza, Gaza and an Israeli-made famine

This past week, I came across a number of images that reveal the sick scale of Israel’s crimes in Gaza.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Gramsci]

How do you judge 'second class citizens'? Can't work? They can. Cant claim state benefits, get a pension etc? They can. Can't vote? They can. Can't have a passport and come and go at will? They can. Can't own a home, a business? They can.

So what's the basic law about then?

And on treating settler and or colonial states equally. I'd say this country still has a problem. See recent Windrush scandal. I know people affected

So yes I do treat other states in same way. Especially my own

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

IsNOTreal. My 14 year old daughter who warned me on to the plight of Palestinians way before the current atrocities began would argue the factual inaccuracies in your assertion mojo pixy . I know them to be false. Israel is an apartheid state. I chose to listen to what she was showing me, despite two of my close friends being Israeli, both broken however, from being forced to participate in that murderous regime. Neither could recognize fully but it was apparent. I judge neither of them. Both murderers. But they were only doing what they were told and had been taught.
And when I started looking into it. It all became very clear we had been lied to a long time.

I went to visit the holocaust museum in Amsterdam a few years ago. It was closed with a sign outside that said work in progress.

Profound when I think back on that now.

 

[mojo pixy]

So what's the basic law about then?

Which Basic Law? There are at least a dozen.

 

[Gramsci]

Don't take my word for it:

An Israeli Palestinian

I’m a Palestinian citizen of Israel. Right now, that’s as complex as you could possibly imagine | Maria Rashed

One can support Palestinians’ right to resist the occupation without supporting Hamas, says Maria Rashed, a freelance journalist

www.google.com

was born and raised in Nazareth in a Christian family. Later, I moved to Tel Aviv, living in a diverse community with Arabs and Jews. Although I was born in Israel, I struggle to identify fully with a country that views me as a second-class citizen, publicly speaks against Arabs, oppresses Palestinians – and the list goes on.

 

[mojo pixy]

IsNOTreal. My 14 year old daughter who warned me on to the plight of Palestinians way before the current atrocities began would argue the factual inaccuracies in your assertion mojo pixy . I know them to be false. Israel is an apartheid state. I chose to listen to what she was showing me, despite two of my close friends being Israeli, both broken however, from being forced to participate in that murderous regime. Neither could recognize fully but it was apparent. I judge neither of them. Both murderers. But they were only doing what they were told and had been taught.
And when I started looking into it. It all became very clear we had been lied to a long time.

I went to visit the holocaust museum in Amsterdam a few years ago. It was closed with a sign outside that said work in progress.

Profound when I think back on that now.

You've already shown you have some pretty anti-semitic views, but setting that aside for the sake of engagement, what exactly have I posted that's "factually inaccurate"?

 

[Gramsci]

Which Basic Law? There are at least a dozen.

Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[mojo pixy]

Don't take my word for it:

An Israeli Palestinian

I’m a Palestinian citizen of Israel. Right now, that’s as complex as you could possibly imagine | Maria Rashed

One can support Palestinians’ right to resist the occupation without supporting Hamas, says Maria Rashed, a freelance journalist

www.google.com

"Although I was born in Israel, I struggle to identify fully with a country that views me as a second-class citizen,..."

Views. Not treats.

 

[Gramsci]

And this

This is more than longstanding practice and rhetoric. The political participation of Palestinian citizens is also limited by Basic Law: The Knesset. Section 7a, legislated in 2002, stipulates that a candidate or a list of candidates can be barred from running for Knesset if their actions or goals explicitly or implicitly include “negation of the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.” The Central Elections Committee – a body comprised of representatives of various political parties – has repeatedly relied on this clause to disqualify Palestinian candidates and lists, arguing that their civil struggle for full equality violates the clause as it denies Israel’s existence as a Jewish state.

https://www.btselem.org/publications/202210_not_a_vibrant_democracy_this_is_apartheid

 

[belboid]

"Although I was born in Israel, I struggle to identify fully with a country that views me as a second-class citizen,..."

Views. Not treats.

six years ago there were 65+ laws that directly or inderectly discriminate against Palestinians within Israel and the OPT. Thats before the ones brought in by this far-right government.

There are laws to stop Arab parties from running in the election; criminal indictments by police against Arab politicians for participating in demonstrations; and a recent law allowing 80 Knesset members (out of 120) to expel their colleagues from the parliament, among others.

The Discriminatory Laws Database - Adalah

Adalah’s Discriminatory Laws Database (DLD) is an online resource comprising a list of over 65 Israeli laws that discriminate directly or indirectly against Palestinian citizens in Israel and/or Palestinian residents of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) on the basis of their national...

www.adalah.org

 

[mojo pixy]

Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

OK so you mean the 2018 one.

Can you point out the bit that makes Arab israelis into 'second class citizens'?

You do realise the UK also has a state religion too? Does that make non-anglicans second class citizens? (it's OK if you say yes, I'm just curious)

 

[8ball]

And this

https://www.btselem.org/publications/202210_not_a_vibrant_democracy_this_is_apartheid

Are you allowed to run and seek to "negate the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state" if you are Jewish?

 

[Gramsci]

"Although I was born in Israel, I struggle to identify fully with a country that views me as a second-class citizen,..."

Views. Not treats.

That's their experience. Is it to be devalued?

Same here in this country with black minority population.

 

[ska invita]

If I felt confident that the Palestinians would have the same opportunities as our indigenous people, I'd feel more hopeful for the future of the Palestinians. However, I doubt that Israel would ever give them the same rights and freedoms.

In a way they already do, in that ~2million Palestinians, Druze, Bedouin etc live within Israel and are Israelis. There's a Wikipedia article here that outlines it quite neatly.

In a way they absolutely do not, they live under apartheid, under salami slicing expulsion from their land and now open ethnic cleansing

The idea that you are arguing that they enjoy the same rights as non-Palestinians in Israel is just mind boggling
Do you need a reminder? Israel's apartheid against Palestinians

 

[mojo pixy]

six years ago there were 65+ laws that directly or inderectly discriminate against Palestinians within Israel and the OPT. Thats before the ones brought in by this far-right government.

There are laws to stop Arab parties from running in the election; criminal indictments by police against Arab politicians for participating in demonstrations; and a recent law allowing 80 Knesset members (out of 120) to expel their colleagues from the parliament, among others.

The Discriminatory Laws Database - Adalah

Adalah’s Discriminatory Laws Database (DLD) is an online resource comprising a list of over 65 Israeli laws that discriminate directly or indirectly against Palestinian citizens in Israel and/or Palestinian residents of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) on the basis of their national...

www.adalah.org

Yes, the current israeli regime is racist as fuck.

 

[mojo pixy]

In a way they absolutely do not, they live under apartheid, under salami slicing expulsion from their land and now open ethnic cleansing

The idea that you are arguing that they enjoy the same rights as non-Palestinians in Israel is just mind boggling

Several 'theys' in this, I'm not sure all refer to the same groups of people.

 

[belboid]

Yes, the current israeli regime is racist as fuck.

Many of those laws predate the current government though. The Adalah piece is from before the far-right joined in.

 

[Gramsci]

OK so you mean the 2018 one.

Can you point out the bit that makes Arab israelis into 'second class citizens'?

You do realise the UK also has a state religion too? Does that make non-anglicans second class citizens? (it's OK if you say yes, I'm just curious)

No mention of Palestinians here:

Basic Principles

A. The land of Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established.

B. The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people, in which it fulfills its natural, cultural, religious, and historical right to self-determination.

C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.

 

[Gramsci]

It could for example say Israel is a bi national state

 

[mojo pixy]

It could fit example say Israel is a bi national state

But it's not, it's a Jewish state. Just as the UK is a Christian state, where the head of state is head of the state religion and bishops help make laws.

 

[mojo pixy]

Israeli brutality is the issue; not Israeli jewishness. Because that would be a double standard.

Ceasefire now.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

You've already shown you have some pretty anti-semitic views, but setting that aside for the sake of engagement, what exactly have I posted that's "factually inaccurate"?

Well first start by quoting my anti Semitic posts and I will comply.
The very fact you claim Palestinians have equal rights in Israel is factually inaccurate and you know it.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Israeli brutality is the issue; not Israeli jewishness. Because that would be a double standard.

Ceasefire now.

Not one person this thread mentioned Jewishness at all.
Fix your optics and stop defending the utterly fucking indefendable.

 

[teqniq]

Israeli brutality is the issue; not Israeli jewishness. Because that would be a double standard.

Ceasefire now.

Ain't gonna happen though is it? As you may be aware there are ongoing negotiations for a prisoner/hostage swap. The sticking point however seems to be that Hamas want an actual ceasefire but Israel will not countenance it. They will likely be stating that they will not give Hamas the opportunity to rebuild/regroup. Other reasons may appear obvious to discerning people.

Meanwhile...

At least 32 of remaining hostages in Gaza are dead, report says

Report that more than a fifth of remaining hostages held by Hamas are dead likely to intensify pressure on Israeli PM

www.theguardian.com