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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

8ball said:
"Notwithstanding newspaper headlines, there have been fewer civilian deaths in Gaza, and a lower ratio of civilian to combatant causalities, than in any modern war in history."

Would have been nice to see some backup for this.
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Possibly you have to take it as a given that there are no civilians in Gaza.
 
agricola said:
If anyone wants to read a not surprising and unrealistic approach:

www.thejc.com

This ICJ compromise means Israel will continue its honourable quest for justice

Unless the international judges address Hamas war crimes, it will deserve no respect
www.thejc.com www.thejc.com
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He is right in one way,
They were fighting in the same way that the United States and Great Britain fought urban warfare against terrorist groups.
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British became expert at counter insurgency.

Arab Revolt in Palestine in 30s/ Mau Mau/ Malaysian emergency.

Did not do well in Ireland. Many of those in British service after the success of the Irish went to Mandate Palestine.

IDF and its Zionist forerunners learnt how to terrorise populations / collective punishment from British.

Particularly in the Arab revolt where the Zionists aided British in putting down the revolt in the infamous Orde Wingate "Night Squads"

So yes he is right IDF are fighting in in same way as British. But then Israel acts like a colonial power in relation to Palestinians.

And not just in war. Zionists use some of the mandate era legal legislation - updated - to keep Palestinians in their place.

Legislation the historian Caroline Elkins called in relation to British Empire a regime of legalised lawlessness,

This ICJ ruling brings into focus the legalised lawlessness of Israel.
 


Perhaps not great idea in hindsight to be seen to be so chummy with the President whose remarks the ICJ quoted as problematic today in their ruling
 
Gramsci said:


Perhaps not great idea in hindsight to be seen to be so chummy with the President whose remarks the ICJ quoted as problematic today in their ruling
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is it too much to wish that Labour Friends of Israel and all the rest of the genocidal solidarity pacts collapse as a result of this.... this "situation" isn't about to go away , the worse is likely yet to come, and with each passing day surely these obscene alliances will have to unwind...
 
teqniq said:
This is a really shitty thing to do:

View attachment 409805
View attachment 409806
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Twelve people out of 30,000 working for UNRWA stand accused. Until the accusations are verified by someone other than Israel, I'm going to assume they are a lie. A lie that was of course coordinated with the ICJ ruling. And it's worked. As we saw on The Times front page - nothing about the ICJ ruling, only this story.
 
andysays said:
That's because the IDF counts all Palestinians as members of Hamas and therefore non-civilians.
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The IDF was saying recently that 9,000 Hamas fighters had been killed, and a human rights organisation was estimating 30,000 total deaths, so that is 2:1 civilian to military deaths.
 
PTK said:
The IDF was saying recently that 9,000 Hamas fighters had been killed, and a human rights organisation was estimating 30,000 total deaths, so that is 2:1 civilian to military deaths.
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In other words, their claim is that every single man that they have killed was a Hamas fighter. Killing people more or less at random as they have been doing, you get figures of roughly half children, quarter women, quarter men. So that's in the ballpark of 9,000 men killed if you include the 1,500 killed on 7 October, assuming that figure is correct.

I'm not sure if they realise that this claim only confirms their genocidal intent. Male + Palestinian = Hamas.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Twelve people out of 30,000 working for UNRWA stand accused. Until the accusations are verified by someone other than Israel, I'm going to assume they are a lie. A lie that was of course coordinated with the ICJ ruling. And it's worked. As we saw on The Times front page - nothing about the ICJ ruling, only this story.
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The Times' story about the ICJ ruling is on their front page at this very moment as is their story about UNRWA. The Times does not have a rolling front page on the web like some other members of the capitalist press. It does a major remake a couple of times a day. It then updates some stories during the day but it only adds occasional stories to the front page in between those remakes.
 
Lurdan said:
The Times' story about the ICJ ruling is on their front page at this very moment as is their story about UNRWA. The Times does not have a rolling front page on the web like some other members of the capitalist press. It does a major remake a couple of times a day. It then updates some stories during the day but it only adds occasional stories to the front page in between those remakes.
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It didn't last night. The UNRWA story was there but not the ICJ ruling. Sorry, but the ruling came at midday UK time. It wasn't on the front page at 10 pm. That was an editorial decision as to which of the two stories was the more significant.

BBC World Service this morning led with the UNRWA story with the ICJ ruling as an afterthought. These are conscious editorial decisions by a press intent on framing a pro-Israel position.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
In other words, their claim is that every single man that they have killed was a Hamas fighter. Killing people more or less at random as they have been doing, you get figures of roughly half children, quarter women, quarter men. So that's in the ballpark of 9,000 men killed if you include the 1,500 killed on 7 October, assuming that figure is correct.

I'm not sure if they realise that this claim only confirms their genocidal intent. Male + Palestinian = Hamas.
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On those figures, the number of civilians killed in the Gaza Strip, as a proportion of the population, in 3 months is about 40 times greater than the number of civilians killed on Ukraine in, as s proportion of the population, in 23 months.

10,000 civilians dead in Ukraine, in a population of 43 million, and 20,000 dead civilians in the Gaza Strip in population of 2 million.
 
Being cold about this the official death toll in Gaza isnt that high by global war standards....yet....but thats not the measure of whats happening...the whole of gaza has been flattened to a level worse than dresden.... at least half a million are facing famine conditions, the rest hardly doing much better....preventable deaths will sky rocket with each passing day....living conditions are unbearable....and there is no end in sight...the survivors are utterly "displaced" from their land...all deliberately..thats what makes it genocidal, not 10,000 dead children.
 
PTK said:
On those figures, the number of civilians killed in the Gaza Strip, as a proportion of the population, in 3 months is about 40 times greater than the number of civilians killed on Ukraine in, as s proportion of the population, in 23 months.

10,000 civilians dead in Ukraine, in a population of 43 million, and 20,000 dead civilians in the Gaza Strip in population of 2 million.
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Yes. They are two totally different kinds of conflict, though. More than 100,000 dead soldiers in Ukraine. It has been carnage in that war, for both sides. The Gaza operation isn't a war. It is an act of ethnic cleansing by a state against a territory occupied by that state.

tbh the thread title isn't really correct. This isn't a Hamas/Israel conflict. Accepting that it is is to accept Israel's lies about what it is trying to do.
 
The39thStep said:
centre pages of Correio da Manha , a Portuguese red top normally known for scandals and football reporting .

It says ‘Condemnation’ in bright red in the bottom centre and top left ‘Israel forced to stop genocide in Gaza’

View attachment 409859
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Their balance: big fuck off article on the EJC ruling, small sidebar on the UNRWA story. The reverse of the likes of the UK Times and BBC.

100 days. :(
 
UK has now pulled UNRWA funding. Just when you think your expectations are so low that can no longer be caught off guard by the cynicism of the British state, they respond like this to an ICJ ruling that their pals are committing genocide. They're starving hundreds of thousands just to bury a story.
 
Ukraine

Population: 43,306,477 (2023 estimate)
(Source: The World Fact Book of the CIA Ukraine - The World Factbook )

Number of civilian deaths, February 2022 – November 2023: 10,000
(Source: United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine Civilian Deaths In Ukraine War Top 10,000, UN Says)

Gaza Strip

Population: 2,098,389 (2023 estimate)
(Source: The World Fact Book of the CIA Gaza Strip - The World Factbook)

Number of deaths, 07 October 2023 - 19 January 2024: 32,246
(Source: Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor Statistics on the Israeli attack on the Gaza Strip (07 October - 19 January 2024))
=

​

 
littlebabyjesus said:
Yes. They are two totally different kinds of conflict, though. More than 100,000 dead soldiers in Ukraine. It has been carnage in that war, for both sides. The Gaza operation isn't a war. It is an act of ethnic cleansing by a state against a territory occupied by that state.

tbh the thread title isn't really correct. This isn't a Hamas/Israel conflict. Accepting that it is is to accept Israel's lies about what it is trying to do.
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Where did you get the figures for the number of military dead in Ukraine? I have been looking, and it is difficult to find a reliable source.
The point is, even if the figures given by the IDF are correct, the ratio of civilian to military deaths is far higher than in other wars, and the level of death is far higher than in Ukraine.
 
PTK said:
Where did you get the figures for the number of military dead in Ukraine? I have been looking, and it is difficult to find a reliable source.
The point is, even if the figures given by the IDF are correct, the ratio of civilian to military deaths is far higher than in other wars, and the level of death is far higher than in Ukraine.
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It is hard to get reliable figures, so I've been conservative. Certainly the number of dead are in their hundreds of thousands now. Quite probably just the number of Russian dead is over 100,000.

But you miss my point. You're comparing apples with oranges. This isn't really a war. When Israel say they are going after Hamas, that is a lie. And it's very important imo to resist the temptation to go along with any part of Israel's lies.
 
SpookyFrank said:
UK has now pulled UNRWA funding. Just when you think your expectations are so low that can no longer be caught off guard by the cynicism of the British state, they respond like this to an ICJ ruling that their pals are committing genocide. They're starving hundreds of thousands just to bury a story.
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Have you got a source for that please?
 
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