Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Aladdin]

Watched a video where setllers are digging tiny graves in view of Palestinians. Implication being..these are for your children.

There's no end to the horror of this war and hatred.

Cannot see Israel stopping...

Great that the ICJ have done what they've done. But it falls short. Should have demanded immediate ceasefire imo.

 

[Mezzer]

This ruling means that we have a very large propaganda stick with which to beath Keir Starmer and others in the Labour Party. They are supporting actions for which the ICJ says there is a plausible case for describing as genocide.

Have the Lib Dems been any more forthcoming in criticism of Israel, or are they, like Labour, towing the line too?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Watched a video where setllers are digging tiny graves in view of Palestinians. Implication being..these are for your children.

There's no end to the horror of this war and hatred.

Cannot see Israel stopping...

Great that the ICJ have done what they've done. But it falls short. Should have demanded immediate ceasefire imo.

I guess it's glass half full or glass half empty.

There is an implication that there might be a way for Israel to continue its war on Palestinians that doesn't break international law, when clearly that is ludicrous. That is why the SA minister emphasised the importance of the report back in one month's time. Need to keep hammering that line. Need to prevent Israel and its allies from framing this as a victory. It's not.

 

[Pickman's model]

Have the Lib Dems been any more forthcoming in criticism of Israel, or are they, like Labour, towing the line too?

towing the line


toeing the line

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Have the Lib Dems been any more forthcoming in criticism of Israel?

In short, yes. Their spokesperson on this is of Palestinian descent and she's come out to call for the fighting to stop.

But it's not surprising that you missed it. It can be hard to find out what they think. So few people are listening.

 

[moochedit]

Have the Lib Dems

Who?

 

[planetgeli]

It's a bit old news now, if it ever was news, but I saw Malcolm Rifkind on BBC last night. I didn't recognize him at first and just thought "oh my god, this is like someone out of the 1950s". Rifkind was foreign secretary under Major. He was banging on about 'civilised people' implying the Palestinians were not civilised. It was outrageous. Made even more so when juxtaposed with the pictures of Gaza I saw when immediately turning over to Al-Jazeera. They were showing some of the worst images I've seen of what Gaza has become.

Civilised. FFS.

Oh I've just remembered. He was asking for moderate Arab states to intervene. He actually said "moderate Arab states such as Saudi Arabia, UAE..."

 

[agricola]

This is where the devil is in the detail, isn't it? The SA minister highlighted the fact that they had to report back in a month. She seemed to think that was very significant.

I get the pessimism of the speaker from the West Bank. The South African representatives have to be upbeat and stress the positives because that's the best way to bring about something positive.

We shall see. This was always about changing the minds of Israel's supporters rather than changing Israel's mind.

That said, I await Keir Starmer coming out to declare that this is what he's been saying all along.

I can understand why people, especially Palestinians who are at the centre of this horror, wanted a call for an immediate ceasefire but I think ultimately this will prove to be a much more effective ruling.

With a ceasefire the IDF would always be able to claim that Hamas wasn't bound by it and so any actions they were taking were in reaction to Hamas attacks, they weren't breaching the ceasefire. This is much more comprehensive that merely a call for a ceasefire would be as it makes it explicitly clear what they have to have done or be clearly on the way to doing in a months time - prevent by all measures within its power the killing, maiming and injuring of Palestinians, improve their conditions of life and allow Palestinian children to be born safely, ensure their military does not commit any of those acts, deal with those calling for genocidal acts and prevent them calling for said things and restore the means of subsistence and support to people in Gaza. There is no way they can do that without a substantial reduction in hostilities throughout Gaza - a ceasefire essentially.

If they don't do those things, as sadly is likely, then for a start the Court is going to take note and have to decide what else it can order but more importantly states (and national legal systems) will have every justification to begin the process of doing something to make sure that Israel abides by the Courts decisions.

 

[planetgeli]

Legally binding. Legally unenforceable.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, the point was made a couple of weeks ago that it would be tricky for them to call for Israel to stop fighting when they couldn't do the same to Hamas. Perhaps it was unrealistic ever to hope that that could happen, in which case this ruling today is just about the best it could have been, particularly with the order to report back.

And it's also a case of making sure the ruling is perceived and used in the right way. South Africa is on that one. I'm sure this ruling is what they were expecting today. They appear extremely well prepared.

 

[agricola]

Legally binding. Legally unenforceable.

I think the problem Netanyahu will find is that, for once, this decision may end up being enforceable - probably not in the form of a Security Council resolution and a UN taskforce enforcing it, but more likely economic and diplomatic measures to encourage compliance from most of the world and legal challenges in those few who remain.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Declaration of Judge Xue:

 

[agricola]

Declaration of Judge Xue:

View attachment 409717

Aside from "unprecedented in history", I agree with every word.

 

[Pickman's model]

Aside from "unprecedented in history", I agree with every word.

the rape of nanking or the sack of magdeburg come to mind as pretty bad for civilians, with perhaps 300,000 civilians killed in the former over six weeks and 17,500 or so civilians killed over 5 days in the latter

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Declaration of Judge Xue:

View attachment 409717

Excellent. More please, judges.

 

[PTK]

This is where the devil is in the detail, isn't it? The SA minister highlighted the fact that they had to report back in a month. She seemed to think that was very significant.

I get the pessimism of the speaker from the West Bank. The South African representatives have to be upbeat and stress the positives because that's the best way to bring about something positive.

We shall see. This was always about changing the minds of Israel's supporters rather than changing Israel's mind.

That said, I await Keir Starmer coming out to declare that this is what he's been saying all along.

.

 

[PTK]

the rape of nanking or the sack of magdeburg come to mind as pretty bad for civilians, with perhaps 300,000 civilians killed in the former over six weeks and 17,500 or so civilians killed over 5 days in the latter

or 26,000 murdered in the Pinsk Ghetto in 2 days.

 

[Gramsci]

Have the Lib Dems been any more forthcoming in criticism of Israel, or are they, like Labour, towing the line too?

In my area of London both Green party Cllrs and LibDem Cllrs put forward motions for Lambeth Council to call for a ceasefire. Other Councils have done this.

The most of the ruling Labour Cllrs didn't support this.

Vote last Wednesday

Lambeth Labour votes against Greens’ motion calling for immediate ceasefire in Gaza

At Wednesday evening’s Full Council Meeting the Labour administration voted down the Green Group’s motion calling for an immediate ceasefire in the Israel/Palestine conflict. Twenty Labour councill…

www.brixtonbuzz.com

So Greens and LD support ceasefire and Labour in Lambeth don't ( except for a few exceptions)

 

[Gramsci]

Other Councils have passed motions calling for Ceasefire

Labour run Lambeth council made this statement about the Green party motion to full council



It's saying the Green party motion that Lambeth support a ceasefire is divisive and will therefore increase rise in anti semitism.

They are as good as calling the Green party Cllrs anti semites.

Ruling Lambeth Labour council says its divisive as Lambeth is a diverse borough ( it is) and having a position on the conflict will increase divisions in the boroughs community.

Council also say that this is not something they can influence and it's up to central government.

They weren't like this over Ukraine.

Two Labour Cllrs broke ranks and voted for the Green motion. One of whom is Jewish. Who is on left of party but somehow got elected as Cllr. Heard they are trying to get rid of him.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Nothing will change. Israel's behaviour won't change. The US and UK will reiterate that Israel should follow international law, but I doubt they'll stop selling Israel weapons.

 

[Duncan2]

Nothing will change. Israel's behaviour won't change. The US and UK will reiterate that Israel should follow international law, but I doubt they'll stop selling Israel weapons.

At least the z.e is in the spotlight now as perhaps never before.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

At least the z.e is in the spotlight now as perhaps never before.

And their response - implying that it's all down to antisemitism - is looking increasingly desperate and absurd. The way antisemitism has been weaponised for use as a cover for genocide is all kinds of despicable. I hope more people are seeing that now.

 

[ska invita]

Aye, one of Netanyahu and his fellow nutters lifes work achievements is making the charge of antisemtism utterly meaningless. I'm sure Jewsh people around the world are thrilled.
There's a long term price for this push to eradicate Palestine

 

[teqniq]

This article from the Times of Israel takes a surprisingly realistic approach:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-hagues-decision-means-israel-is-now-in-the-dock-for-genocide/

 

[8ball]

This article from the Times of Israel takes a surprisingly realistic approach:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-hagues-decision-means-israel-is-now-in-the-dock-for-genocide/

Bit of an interesting formulation of sentence here:

"This step indicates that the court does not believe South Africa’s incendiary allegations are entirely unfounded, a determination which Hamas, South Africa and Israel’s enemies broadly celebrated in the immediate aftermath of the decision."

 

[teqniq]

Yes, I did notice. Nevertheless they realise it is not good news for Israel.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, I did notice. Nevertheless they realise it is not good news for Israel.

Not good news for bn certainly

 

[8ball]

Yes, I did notice. Nevertheless they realise it is not good news for Israel.

Yeah. Just made me wonder what process they went through when deciding the order of the words there.

It seems a very reasonable interpretation overall, though.

 

[Pickman's model]

This article from the Times of Israel takes a surprisingly realistic approach:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-hagues-decision-means-israel-is-now-in-the-dock-for-genocide/

Didn't think the zionist entity had much moral standing to boast of

 

[Sue]

There's an Israeli government spokesman on C4 news just now. He's saying black is white and accusing the court of bias. I mean Christ. .