Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Jeff Robinson]

15 votes to 2 - one of which was the Israeli judge.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

16 votes (including the Israeli judge) to 1 one on punishing incitement to genocide.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

 

[agricola]

further to above:

i) this was a 15-2 decision (the US chair voted yes, one of the two no was Israel's, the other Uganda)
ii) this was a 15-2 decision
iii) this was a 16-1 decision (everyone but the Ugandan judge)
iv) this was 16-1 (as above)
v) this was 15-2 (Israel and Uganda the no)
vi) this was 15-2 (as above)

this can only be described as a kicking

 

[agricola]

16 votes (including the Israeli judge) to 1 one on punishing incitement to genocide.

Hope they publish the Ugandan judges' reasoning on that one

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Who the fuck is the Uganda judge? Idi Amin back from the dead?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Note that the court majority’s ruling is basically the same as Keir Starmer’s. Israeli must obey by international law but can continue its military operations.

 

[agricola]

Who the fuck is the Uganda judge? Idi Amin back from the dead?

Julia Sebutinde - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[The39thStep]

Made my day. Restores your faith that sometimes it's possible to get some justice. Well done the 'crabs' of South Africa

 

[agricola]

Note that the court majority’s ruling is basically the same as Keir Starmers. Israeli must obey by international law but can continue its military operations.

They could read that decision that way, but they'd have even less success than they did trying to stop these provisional measures. The expectation of the court is clearly that things must be vastly better when one month is up.

 

[Dystopiary]

Thanks agricola and Jeff Robinson for the info.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Note that the court majority’s ruling is basically the same as Keir Starmer’s. Israeli must obey by international law but can continue its military operations.

They rejected the idea that they didn't have jurisdiction and they made a judgement that explicitly mentions genocide as a clear and imminent danger. That's very different from anything Starmer has said.

Realistically this is probably the best we could have hoped for, and the fact that it was the Israeli judge plus one strange rogue from Uganda and nobody else dissenting is a big win.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Having said that, Palestinian representative on Al Jazeera is saying she's disappointed. She wanted a call for an immediate ceasefire. She doesn't think this will make much difference.

Palestinian ambassador to UK is more upbeat.

 

[ska invita]

Israel must:

or else what?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The ambassador makes the point that this is the first time in 75 years that Israel has been held accountable for its actions. His position makes sense to me. This isn't the end of something. It is potentially a start of something, but that will require a lot more effort.

 

[agricola]

or else what?

Presumably more severe measures being imposed within a month's time.

 

[Sue]

According to the Guardian:

'Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel’s security minister responded to Friday’s ICJ ruling by tweeting: “Hague Shmague”.'

Medical services at Gaza’s largest functioning health facility collapse amid intense fighting in Khan Younis, warns MSF – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

 

[Jeff Robinson]

They rejected the idea that they didn't have jurisdiction and they made a judgement that explicitly mentions genocide as a clear and imminent danger. That's very different from anything Starmer has said.

Realistically this is probably the best we could have hoped for, and the fact that it was the Israeli judge plus one strange rogue from Uganda and nobody else dissenting is a big win.

Of course they have jurisdiction that Starmer lacks - Starmer isn’t an international court. Agree it’s the best we could hope for though

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Good speech from South African minister on Al Jazeera. Disappointed that there was no call for a ceasefire, but makes the point that to carry out the court's orders, a ceasefire is necessary.

 

[The39thStep]

Any calls for conscription in the UK or EU to ensure the ICJ conditions are met?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Very impressive speech from South African minister of international relations Naledi Pandor. Ends by saying that just as South Africa overcame apartheid, so Palestinians can overcome. I like how she didn't even bother to call on Israel to do anything. Instead she shamed Israel's 'powerful friends'.

South Africa has really stepped up.

 

[The39thStep]

Western values

 

[agricola]

Good speech from South African minister on Al Jazeera. Disappointed that there was no call for a ceasefire, but makes the point that to carry out the court's orders, a ceasefire is necessary.

FWIW the implications of not following the order would be considerable in terms of the final decision in the case.

I did think it could be possible for the ICJ to not find Israel guilty of genocide (on the basis that they were committing war crimes short of genocide), but flat out ignoring an order of that kind would make it much more likely the ICJ would rule the same way in the final decision and conceivably much earlier than they might have otherwise.

 

[Pickman's model]

Hope they publish the Ugandan judges' reasoning on that one

perhaps the zionists have threatened a return to entebbe

 

[oryx]

or else what?

While I am very pleased to see this ruling, Israel has been ignoring international law with impunity for decades, and sadly I don't see this making much difference.

Will be pleased to be wrong on this one though.

 

[ska invita]

"The ICJ’s rulings are legally binding and cannot be appealed. However, the court has no way of enforcing them and the enforcement is left to the international community."

...the International Community has just spoken:

View attachment 409698

 

[tim]

The answer re Starmer is he is bought and paid for: look at who financed his leadership campaign

Tell us who finances him.

 

[Cloo]

As gsv says, Israel's response will just be to say it isn't doing any of those things and anyone saying they are is making it up.

Basically 'Nah nah nah nah, we can't hear you'

 

[PTK]

This ruling means that we have a very large propaganda stick with which to beath Keir Starmer and others in the Labour Party. They are supporting actions for which the ICJ says there is a plausible case for describing as genocide.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

FWIW the implications of not following the order would be considerable in terms of the final decision in the case.

This is where the devil is in the detail, isn't it? The SA minister highlighted the fact that they had to report back in a month. She seemed to think that was very significant.

I get the pessimism of the speaker from the West Bank. The South African representatives have to be upbeat and stress the positives because that's the best way to bring about something positive.

We shall see. This was always about changing the minds of Israel's supporters rather than changing Israel's mind.

That said, I await Keir Starmer coming out to declare that this is what he's been saying all along.