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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

A fantastic incentive for rapists and murderers to assimilate into civilian areas.

It is still collective punishment of innocent people. No different to Hamas targeting innocent civilians.

Look, I understand that direct murder of innocent people with guns generates a more visceral reaction of disgust than cutting off a water supply. If I'm honest I feel far greater immediate revulsion towards the Hamas attacks on the music festival than to Israeli bombing of Gaza, simply because I can relate far more easily to people at a music festival and imagine myself in their shoes more easily than I can imagine living in the desperate conditions of Gaza.

But there is also a rational component to morality. I don't feel as strong a reaction to the suffering of people in Gaza because I don't relate to them, I am exposed to fewer images of their suffering, and airstrikes and starvation feel less direct and terrifying than armed men shooting fleeing teenagers and dragging away screaming women as hostages into a van.

But I know logically that Palestinian suffering and grief is real and no less worthy than the suffering of innocents in Israel, and their lives have no less value. I think you have so far on this thread displayed a callous attitude towards their suffering by blaming Hamas for it, and I think you have taken some rather unconvincing mental gymnastics to explain how this is any less callous than blaming the treatment of Gaza for the attacks this weekend (which few have done - most have said it explains it but have not said anyone but Hamas is responsible. There are one or two odious exceptions from the usual suspects but certainly not Kabbes who you have directed an unreasonable amount of ire towards).

The fact is that your callous attitude towards the suffering of people in Gaza comes from your refusal to take anything but a visceral emotional reaction of disgust and anger as valid. Righteous anger that becomes its own justification is what continues the cycle of violence. More cool heads and attempts at understanding from both sides is the only way to resolve a conflict, even if it appears like it would take a miracle for cool heads to prevail simultaneously on both sides here. Righteous condemnation of those who try to understand the other side is hardly something conducive to peace.

There is a very real possibility that the response to this could amount to genocide and if so I suspect you are going to feel like a bit of an arsehole that your first response to Israel cutting off water and food supplies to 2.3 million people as well as power to hospitals while bombing refugee camps, apartment blocks and markets is to effectively say "well it's their own bloody fault" (you said Hamas' fault, but it's still the same shitty reaction that you have - often falsely - accused others of doing with Hamas' attacks on Israel). And in your most recent posts you have actually gone on to justify Israel cutting off water to 2.3 million people based on the actions of a few hundred militants with some crude analogy about a rapist hiding in a house. That is just as monstrous as Top Cat's worst posts in this thead. I know you are more reasonable than that so I suggest you take a step back and calm down.
 
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And by the way, Kabbes' "sub-teenage" paper is correct. A resolution of the conflict is impossible so long as Israel continues to engage in a revisionism that denies Palestinians any victim hood and denies the Nakba as having ever happened. This may be a truth of conflict resolution so obvious that it is sub-teenage - my father certainly taught me that an apology to my sister requires acknowledgement of wrongdoing before I turned 13 - but apparently it still needs pointing out to adults who are blinded by anger and bias. Or, "politically biased to the point of fundamentalist incoherence and absurdity", as you put it yourself.

And if a peaceful resolution is impossible, then it will continue until one side - almost certainly the Palestinians - is exterminated. A finality which may now be coming sooner rather than later.
 
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To quote Judith Butler

One way of posing the question of who “we” are in these times of war is by asking whose lives are considered valuable, whose lives are mourned, and whose lives are considered ungrievable. We might think of war as dividing populations into those who are grievable and those who are not. An ungrievable life is one that cannot be mourned because it has never lived, that is, it has never counted as a life at all. We can see the division of the globe into grievable and ungrievable lives from the perspective of those who wage war in order to defend the lives of certain communities, and to defend them against the lives of others—even if it means taking those latter lives.
 
Hamas was proscribed in 2001 by the Labour government under the Terrorism Act 2000, passed when Jack Straw was home secretary. Don’t kid yourself that this won’t soon be Labour rhetoric too, especially as they will need to demonstrate that they’re definitely not anti-semitic.
Or you could just recall which party left mandate Palestine
 
Why?

Within the metaphor, I mean. What is it about moving trains that prevents neutrality?
The relationship on board between the people keeping the train going on the one hand and the passengers on the other; not to mention the different interests of the people on the train, and the people running the railway
 
Get out while you can, oops maybe not then....

7:41am: Israeli military suggests Gazans fleeing strikes head to Egypt. The Israeli military suggested on Tuesday that Palestinians fleeing its air strikes in the Gaza Strip head to Egypt, which also borders the blockaded enclave. "I am aware that the Rafah crossing (on the Gaza-Egypt border) is still open," Lieutenant-Colonel Richard Hecht, chief military spokesperson to the foreign media, said in a briefing. "Anyone who can get out, I would advise them to get out."

7:51am
: Israeli military amends remarks on Gaza-Egypt border crossing The Israeli military revised on Tuesday a recommendation by one of its spokespeople that Palestinians fleeing its air strikes in the Gaza Strip head to Egypt, saying in a follow-up statement that the main crossing on that border was currently closed. Briefing foreign reporters, Lieutenant-Colonel Richard Hecht said he would advise Palestinian refugees to "get out" through the Rafah crossing on Gaza's southern border with Egypt. His office then issued a statement. "Clarification: The Rafah crossing was open yesterday, but now it is closed," it said.

 
Or you could just recall which party left mandate Palestine

Not by choice but because they could no longer maintain colonial control.

Anyway, the more nuanced political manoeuvring has begun. Hamas has announced that they will murder a hostage every time the Israelis make an attack on a civilian target without giving a prior warning.
 
Not by choice but because they could no longer maintain colonial control.

Anyway, the more nuanced political manoeuvring has begun. Hamas has announced that they will murder a hostage every time the Israelis make an attack on a civilian target without giving a prior warning.
They're going to run out of hostages pretty soon, then.
 
No sign of it yet. Maybe whoever was responsible for announcing the intention to publish the filmed beheading of hostages for every civilian target hit has now been bombed to death.
 
The Israeli military says the bodies of 1,500 Hamas fighters have been found in Israeli territory, if true this will bring the death toll on both sides close to that of the four years of the Second Intifada

 
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Guess it depends on relevance, I don’t know which particular exchange you’re talking about.
He’s talking about when he tried to use his usual belittling arrogance to dismiss something I said as “sub-teenage” and I called his bluff by pointing out that it was actually a précis from an academic paper, and that I had been to see the author talking about it at the LSE. I never actually mentioned studying at the LSE in that exchange at all — he’s interpreted it as he wishes because his ego got bruised and he’s lashing out.
 
If people post significant news or updates can they try and put a reliable source with them please? And maybe err on the cautious side rather than posting every thing they see elsewhere that sounds terrible/exciting/etc?
 
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Rte has an idf spokesperson on now, saying basically that bringing the hostages home is a priority, not the priority.
The priority is presumably making as sure as possible that there any similar acts of political theatre do not have an opening night.

After that the wellbeing of hostages has to be the priority. Netanyahu and his coalition partners have no future without that, given how much they have fucked up by letting this happen.

For Hamas hostages are the way of guaranteeing that the Israeli response will be moderated. They don't want to alienate their support in Gaza.
 
The priority is presumably making as sure as possible that there any similar acts of political theatre do not have an opening night.

After that the wellbeing of hostages has to be the priority. Netanyahu and his coalition partners have no future without that, given how much they have fucked up by letting this happen.

For Hamas hostages are the way of guaranteeing that the Israeli response will be moderated. They don't want to alienate their support in Gaza.

Any hopes of moderation went out of the window when they decided to target kids and execute hostages. They're using tactics straight out of the ISIL playbook from the get-go, and have elected to play Atrocity Poker with one of the most murderous regimes on the planet.
 
I know you love being a wind-up merchant and on many subjects assume a position you don't actually believe for the lols but you're rather painting yourself into a corner here
I don't think Spy's on a wind-up here, at least I hope he isn't, I hope he's just so shocked about the horrific Hamas attacks, that he hasn't probably thought about what is or isn't a reasonable response from Israel.

How about not making things worse by raping and abducting children to deliberately make things worse as a political strategy?

I can understand why Hamas has chosen to take attention at this time, as Israel has been pushing their luck far too much in recent years, but I totally agree the nature of their actions have been horrific, and was clearly going to make things so much worst, because Israel always responds in a disproportionate manner, and I am convinced it'll result in a lot of people across the world questioning their support for the Palestinian cause.

But, unless you have taken a massive right turn in recent years, which I don't think you have, let me remind you about the first time we met IRL back in 2009, it was when both of us, together with some other urbs, joined a massive march in London in support for Gaza and Palestinian people, because of Israel's disproportionate actions at the time.

So, what's changed?

Think about it, do you seriously feel that stopping the supply of food, electric and water to 2.3 million people, that are mainly innocent victims in all this, is a proportionate response to Hamas' horrific attacks, that have killed a few hundred in Israel, because it bloody well isn't, it's illegal, immoral and indefensible.

The whole situation is so bloody depressing, as if the shit show between Hamas and the Israeli state isn't going to be bad enough, I suspect there'll be a massive uptick in anti-semitic attacks across much of the world too. :(
 
Any hopes of moderation went out of the window when they decided to target kids and execute hostages. They're using tactics straight out of the ISIL playbook from the get-go, and have elected to play Atrocity Poker with one of the most murderous regimes on the planet.
Neither the Israelis nor Hamas are moderate but they are both politically astute and know how to play the game to their own advantage.
 
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