TopCat
Putin fanboy
The continuing oppression of the Palestinians is fundamentally immoral. Their right to fight back is absolute.
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
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Ax^
Silly Rabbit
half way down the line of if you criticise the state of Israel then you are being anti semetic
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Some of them aren't far off that. They see Palestinian children as a threat to the future of Israel. Of course, it is generally framed in the form of 'you kill our children, and that is why we have to kill yours', as Golda Meir said. Victim-blaming. And we see this played out again and again - Israel is attacked first and then Israel retaliates. But Israel is constantly attacking Palestinians.
Israeli Minister for National Security is very open about wanting to 'encourage emigration'. He supports the idea of segregated maternity wards. He is a fan of Meir Kahane, who wanted to outlaw sex between Jews and non-Jews.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Incredible you seem to equate a reactionary and oppressive organisation who've killed and kidnapped hundreds of the Jewish working class (and plenty of Palestinians including trade unionists, gays, etc.) with all Palestinians and see that as absolutely fine.
Riklet
procrastinación
This is bullshit Spy. At least regarding the defence part.
No one is against Israel defending itself if invaded. But this has come to be equated with its administration of the occupied territories and its continuous gross violations of human rights, UN resolutions, its own laws... the list goes on. And how many Palestinians have died just since 2000 alone through Israel's brutal policies.
My Dad and friends cheered Israel on in the '67 war when they were young. It was the plucky underling giving the aggressors a massive kicking! But things have changed. Who is cheering Israel on now? Psychopaths and right wing cunts and people in Israel who have sadly lost all perspective. Even people who broadly support Israel don't have the heart to cheer them on. It's not equatable to some anti terrorist opperation carried out by Brits in Ireland or French security forces against ISIS. It's a full on war against civilians.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Do you seriously believe that either the Israeli cabinet or the Hamas high command are sat around tables cacklingly like mad witches at the thought of all this death. They've no problems with it of course but in both cases it is simply a means to an end.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Most of the voices of domestic criticism that they've killed you mean?
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
So, how do you view the morality of the murder of young people at a music festival? Slaughtering innocent people is not 'fighting back' it is cowardly and vile murder.
Do the Palestinian people support Hamas and its actions or not? I appreciate that in that society the people with the guns may well be in 'government', without necessarily having the support of the majority of the people.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
But. it's the manner in which this 'fight back' has been carried out that has been horrific and likely to seriously back-fire in all manner of ways, their actions are not dissimilar to what the Russians have been doing in Ukraine, which is why any sane person will condemn Hamas for what they have done, not that I expect you will.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
We don't disagree on this.
We disagree on the methods they use and the culpability for specific actions.
dilute micro
esse quam videri
To what end? I agree with a basic right to fight oppression. But what is the goal, the destruction of Israel? Israel aren't likely to be going anywhere.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It reminds me of The Battle of Algiers and the bombs planted in Algiers in the 50s. They were also targetting young people having fun. They did it to draw international attention to their plight. And it worked.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Did the IRA miss a trick then?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
tbh it is not so much that there is a country called israel, but that there is a country called israel which was founded on terrorism and 'ethnic cleansing', and which has for the past 75 years developed into a brutal apartheid state. indeed, it was one of apartheid south africa's closest allies. most of us here, i think, object to racism, apartheid, colonialism and so forth, to the illegal occupation of the west bank, the golan heights and the vile conditions imposed on gaza. despite pious pleas above, i think it is impossible to understand the actions of the past few days outside the context of the zionists turning gaza into a massive ghetto where despite no longer occupying it, they retain control over the lives of 2.3m people. Subaltern violence is brutal, the Indian mutiny / first war of independence for example. But it's often lauded in the face of overwhelming military might like the Warsaw uprisings. Should the oppressed accept their oppression, or should they seek to end it, even in the event of inevitable failure and further suffering?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Is 'it worked' a reason to support it then? Nothing to do with aims or politics or methods and what all those might be?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Indeed. Hamas is not “the Palestinians”.
Palestine: Impunity for Arbitrary Arrests, Torture
Palestinian authorities are systematically mistreating and torturing Palestinians in detention, including critics and opponents.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I didn't say that I supported it. ftr I don't. The whole situation, including the killing of the rave kids, fills me with despair. But someone my age who has lived their whole life in an Israeli controlled prison is likely to view the killing of Israelis differently from me in any case.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Oh, come on. Take a look at this thread. TC might be the most outspoken anti-Israeli here, but at least he's got the bollocks to say what he thinks. Go back and take a look at all the likes he's collected from cheerleaders on the sidelines who haven't posted.
Yes, it has. My argument is with those who consider that to be a relevant factor in Hamas' decision to rape and murder kids.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Incredibly, or perhaps not so incredibly these days, this article from Haaretz (admittedly on the liberal end of the press in Israel but a very brave liberal end ,) is so much better than the discussion on here tbh.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
To be fair, Hamas do represent some Palestinians, but you’re right that they are antithetical to any sort of libertory politics. Everyone on the left knew this during the first intifada where their main role seemed to be terrorising other Palestinians - especially those it regarded as ‘moral deviants’. The type of society they wish to build would be no better than the apartheid regime they seek to replace - the poles of repression would just be reversed and extended, with anybody who doesn’t live by their preferred Islamic scriptures being relegated to second class status, if not expelled, killed or jailed.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Excellent piece
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That's an excellent article. And yes, a brave voice in today's Israel. The author understands that you have to understand and acknowledge the history to make any sense of what is going on.
That is great. Amira Hass is generally very good.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Gaza is already a massive humanitarian emergency.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
They are terrorists. This is inarguable.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Who's going to stop them?
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platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
An interesting thread:
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