Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[chilango]

Any hopes of moderation went out of the window when they decided to target kids and execute hostages. They're using tactics straight out of the ISIL playbook from the get-go, and have elected to play Atrocity Poker with one of the most murderous regimes on the planet.

That wasn't "the get-go" though was it?

The conflict didn't just start this week did it?

 

[platinumsage]

All of this so a group of humans who believe in one god can claim temporary ownership of a patch of dirt over another group of humans who believe in a different god.

Fucks sake, what is wrong with us as a species?

Nothing, we’re normal. Lots of species fight for territory. The problem for us is we get to pontificate on it.

 

[two sheds]

Nothing, we’re normal. Lots of species fight for territory. The problem for us is we get to pontificate on it.

I don't think pontificating is our only problem.

 

[teqniq]

This vid gives a clearer idea of the complete devastation:

 

[brogdale]

Any hopes of moderation went out of the window when they decided to target kids and execute hostages. They're using tactics straight out of the ISIL playbook from the get-go, and have elected to play Atrocity Poker with one of the most murderous regimes on the planet.

"They" is the weasel word here; shameful.

 

[likesfish]

And by the way, Kabbes' "sub-teenage" paper is correct. A resolution of the conflict is impossible so long as Israel continues to engage in a revisionism that denies Palestinians any victim hood and denies the Nakba as having ever happened. This may be a truth of conflict resolution so obvious that it is sub-teenage - my father certainly taught me that an apology to my sister requires acknowledgement of wrongdoing before I turned 13 - but apparently it still needs pointing out to adults who are blinded by anger and bias. Or, "politically biased to the point of fundamentalist incoherence and absurdity", as you put it yourself.

And if a peaceful resolution is impossible, then it will continue until one side - almost certainly the Palestinians - is exterminated. A finality which may now be coming sooner rather than later.

The Israeli Argument is the Arab League planned to genocide Israel and did expel every Jewish community from Arab states. Israel resettled Jewish refugees Arab states kept them as a proxy force.till they outstayed their "welcome"

 

[Spymaster]

I don't think Spy's on a wind-up here, at least I hope he isn't, I hope he's just so shocked about the horrific Hamas attacks, that he hasn't probably thought about what is or isn't a reasonable response from Israel.



I can understand why Hamas has chosen to take attention at this time, as Israel has been pushing their luck far too much in recent years, but I totally agree the nature of their actions have been horrific, and was clearly going to make things so much worst, because Israel always responds in a disproportionate manner, and I am convinced it'll result in a lot of people across the world questioning their support for the Palestinian cause.

But, unless you have taken a massive right turn in recent years, which I don't think you have, let me remind you about the first time we met IRL back in 2009, it was when both of us, together with some other urbs, joined a massive march in London in support for Gaza and Palestinian people, because of Israel's disproportionate actions at the time.

So, what's changed?

Think about it, do you seriously feel that stopping the supply of food, electric and water to 2.3 million people, that are mainly innocent victims in all this, is a proportionate response to Hamas' horrific attacks, that have killed a few hundred in Israel, because it bloody well isn't, it's illegal, immoral and indefensible.

The whole situation is so bloody depressing, as if the shit show between Hamas and the Israeli state isn't going to be bad enough, I suspect there'll be a massive uptick in anti-semitic attacks across much of the world too.

I still support Gaza and the Palestinian people; but pointing out that cutting-off their utilities and bombing them to oblivion was an inevitable consequence of an IS style terror attack has drawn the opprobrium of the usual crowd on here. That was inevitable too, and look what's happened. The thread's now become about what bastards the Israelis are. Saturday's all but forgotten. Someone should just change the thread title to Israel's Bombing of Gaza Oct/23 and be done with it.

 

[brogdale]

I still support Gaza and the Palestinian people; but pointing out that cutting-off their utilities and bombing them to oblivion was an inevitable consequence of an IS style terror attack has drawn the opprobrium of the usual crowd on here. That was inevitable too, and look what's happened. The thread's now become about what bastards the Israelis are. Saturday's all but forgotten. Someone should just change the thread title to Israel's Bombing of Gaza Oct/23 and be done with it.

You didn't just point out, you justified the war crime against innocents living in Gaza on the basis of the actions of murderous 'state' actors.

 

[Spymaster]

You didn't just point out, you justified the war crime against innocents living in Gaza on the basis of the actions of murderous 'state' actors.

Yes. I'm sure that's how people like you would choose to read that.

 

[A380]

The Israeli Argument is the Arab League planned to genocide Israel and did expel every Jewish community from Arab states. Israel resettled Jewish refugees Arab states kept them as a proxy force.till they outstayed their "welcome"

TBF many people on the left do tend to gloss over 1948 and 1973, which is understandable from a certain narrative. What's more surprising to me is how little 1956 is discussed given the shameful involvement of us and the French (though I wonder how much of that is caused by the role the US played in putting all three of 'us' back in out boxes, which also doesn't fit in a lot of 'progressive' narratives).

 

[Rimbaud]

I still support Gaza and the Palestinian people; but pointing out that cutting-off their utilities and bombing them to oblivion was an inevitable consequence of an IS style terror attack has drawn the opprobrium of the usual crowd on here. That was inevitable too, and look what's happened. The thread's now become about what bastards the Israelis are. Saturday's all but forgotten. Someone should just change the thread title to Israel's Bombing of Gaza Oct/23 and be done with it.

It is an inevitable consequence, yes, but that you are willing to point that out - and crossing the line from pointing that out into justifying it which only Topcat has done from the other side - while acting indignant over any acknowledgement of how terrorism is an inevitable consequence of conditions in Gaza is hypocritical.

 

[kabbes]

Indeed — “it’s an inevitable consequence of…” was the very phrasing that Spymaster threw his toys out of the pram about right at the start! This was my very first post in the thread, which he took offence to:

I have no support for launching an attack that kills hundreds of civilians. I do, however, see this kind of violence as an inevitable part of how a colonised people will respond to their colonisers, especially when this involves the active repression, subjugation, dehumanisation and impoverishment of the colonised. Desperate people respond in desperation.

 

[Spymaster]

It is an inevitable consequence, yes, but that you are willing to point that out - and crossing the line from pointing that out into justifying it which only Topcat has done from the other side - while acting indignant over any acknowledgement of how terrorism is an inevitable consequence of conditions in Gaza is hypocritical.

I did not justify it, although on rereading it I can see how it might be taken that way, particularly by those of you who are predisposed to believe that. It was a clumsy attempt to analogise the inevitable cosequences of mass-murdering the children of the people who control your water supply.

For the record, I abhor Israel's response.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Hamas shouldn’t butcher innocent kids at a festival. Israel shouldn’t cut off water to innocents. Fanatical cunts on both sides should just stop being fanatical cunts and using historical atrocity as justification for current day ones. Christ, this isn’t hard.

 

[The39thStep]

Yes. I'm sure that's how people like you would choose to read that.

psychotic late onset anarchist or person from Kent type people?

 

[Flavour]

Are you calling brogdale a psycho?

 

[Knotted]

I don't think Spy's on a wind-up here, at least I hope he isn't, I hope he's just so shocked about the horrific Hamas attacks, that he hasn't probably thought about what is or isn't a reasonable response from Israel.

It's all extremely emotive (it's designed to be). The overall situation is very difficult to grasp and I don't anybody here does including myself. But we can at least be generous to each other on here. Nobody here is solving anything or perpetuating anything.

 

[kabbes]

I did not justify it, although on rereading it I can see how it might be taken that way, particularly by those of you who are predisposed to believe that. It was a clumsy attempt to analogise the inevitable cosequences of mass-murdering the children of the people who control your water supply.

For the record, I abhor Israel's response.

But is your explanation of Israel’s response and contextualisation for it in terms of what Hamas has done consistent with these positions?

…I doubt there is anyone on either side of the debate, who's not a psychotic, deluded arsehole, who would seek to explain the murder of 250 kids at a party, and the hostage taking of children and elderly, as anything other than disgusting and depraved.

I think everyone, whatever their politics, should unequivocally and unconditionally, condemn the massacre of children.

You insisted in these quotes (and others) that there could be no explaining, understanding or contextualising why Hamas responded as they did, because the response involved killing children. Only unequivocal and unconditional condemnation was possible. Anything else essentially comprised an excuse. And yet now you want to explain, contextualise and understand Israel’s killing of children.

For the record, I think it all needs explaining and understanding, for all our sakes. It will never be resolved otherwise.

 

[Spymaster]

Indeed — “it’s an inevitable consequence of…” was the very phrasing that Spymaster threw his toys out of the pram about right at the start! This was my very first post in the thread, which he took offence to:

So you pointing out that mass-murder and hostage taking is an inevitable consequence of how colonised people will respond, is fine and dandy, but me pointing out that mass bombings and deprivation of utilities is an inevitable consequence of murdering 250 Israeli kids, is justifying war crimes!

Fuck off.

 

[MickiQ]

Hostages aren’t much use if their lives aren’t seen to be in danger tbf

Even less if they're dead though

I recollect when an IDF soldier got captured via a tunnel near the Gaza perimeter fence a while back. The IDF bombed flat a whole area in which they thought he had been taken. They wanted him dead rather than “held hostage “. It’s the same for the current abductees. They are a political pain for the Israeli government. Easier if they are dead.

This is complete nonsense, Israel's willingness to go to great lengths to get 'their' people back is well documented. Why do you think Hamas took hostages in the first place rather than just killing them?
The last hostage swap involved them swapping something like a thousand prisoners for one live soldier and two dead ones. Getting a hundred hostages many of whom are civilians even including pre-schoolers back is going to be Israel's top priority and the hostages are one of Hamas's only two cards. (The other being a ground invasion will be messy and the IDF will take casualities)
Israel is a democracy (flawed or otherwise) and absolute twat though he is Netanyahu isn't going to want to face the public as the man whose actions failed to save the lives of child hostages.

I think cutting off the water will damage public support for Israel even within Israel itself - - if it doesn't force Hamas to surrender. If hamas surrender and give up the hostages after a few days then you can say cutting the water off was a successful tactic. But if it does not achieve that aim, and hamas continue fighting, then it's not a great look really.

This is an excellent point, currently public opinion is running on pure outrage but there are plenty of people in Israel who do understand the basic injustices that stir the point and supply Hamas with an endless supply of recruits.

If they ran into a house which contained a hundred innocent people I would not turn off the electricity or water. Collective punishment is a war crime under international law.

It's an house where a large percentage of those innocent people either tacitly support the criminals and are related to them. However daft analogies are still daft analogies.
Collective punishment is a war crime but so is shooting kids, neither fact is very relevant at the moment.
Cutting off water and electric isn't being done to punish anyone any more than the bombing, it's being done to degrade Hamas ability to fight. Hamas can't defend themselves against the IAF but a ground assault is a different matter. It can't win but it can go down fighting, the more of them that are already dead, the fewer the men the IDF will lose.
The Israel government aren't baby eating monsters slavering over the chance to murder Palestinian children, they are hard-headed politicians who are making practical and very ruthless decisions with one eye on domestic opinion and another on international opinion that actually matters (ie in Washington). The Arab street and the European one for that matter is simply insignificant. They don't want to actively harm the civilian population in Gaza but they're very willing to accept there will be collateral damage.

 

[Idris2002]

In 1994, it took the Hutus a month to kill 800,000 Tutsis. They did it mainly with machetes.

I'm starting to wonder if Pal casualties will be much higher than we've seen before.

 

[kabbes]

So you pointing out that mass-murder and hostage taking is an inevitable consequence of how colonised people will respond, is fine and dandy, but me pointing out that mass bombings and deprivation of utilities is an inevitable consequence of murdering 250 Israeli kids, is justifying war crimes!

Fuck off.

No, see my other post just now. My point is that it ALL needs understanding in terms of consequences and systems. Not just one side of it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Hamas shouldn’t butcher innocent kids at a festival. Israel shouldn’t cut off water to innocents. Fanatical cunts on both sides should just stop being fanatical cunts and using historical atrocity as justification for current day ones. Christ, this isn’t hard.

It's not a symmetrical situation, though. The atrocity against the Palestinians is ongoing. It has been ongoing since 1948 and before. The people celebrating Israeli deaths need to be viewed in this context. They're not fanatical cunts. They're a people in a state of despair.

 

[Riklet]

In 1994, it took the Hutus a month to kill 800,000 Tutsis. They did it mainly with machetes.

I'm starting to wonder if Pal casualties will be much higher than we've seen before.

with 1500 Hamas militants killed inside Israel and 600+ people killed in Gaza it's already pretty damn bloody and awful after just 4 days. But I still don't think the Israelis will be able to flatten Gaza for weeks.

The whole international community's we stand with Israel bullshit (and fuck the 2.3 million people in Gaza) is just because the numbers of Israelis killed are somewhat equal to the Palestinians. Rather than being 10-1. That's why Israelis are so shocked for sure.

 

[The39thStep]

Are you calling brogdale a psycho?

Who me? If you follow the thread you'll find the reference

 

[The39thStep]

Even less if they're dead though

This is complete nonsense, Israel's willingness to go to great lengths to get 'their' people back is well documented. Why do you think Hamas took hostages in the first place rather than just killing them?
The last hostage swap involved them swapping something like a thousand prisoners for one live soldier and two dead ones. Getting a hundred hostages many of whom are civilians even including pre-schoolers back is going to be Israel's top priority and the hostages are one of Hamas's only two cards. (The other being a ground invasion will be messy and the IDF will take casualities)
Israel is a democracy (flawed or otherwise) and absolute twat though he is Netanyahu isn't going to want to face the public as the man whose actions failed to save the lives of child hostages.

This is an excellent point, currently public opinion is running on pure outrage but there are plenty of people in Israel who do understand the basic injustices that stir the point and supply Hamas with an endless supply of recruits.

It's an house where a large percentage of those innocent people either tacitly support the criminals and are related to them. However daft analogies are still daft analogies.
Collective punishment is a war crime but so is shooting kids, neither fact is very relevant at the moment.
Cutting off water and electric isn't being done to punish anyone any more than the bombing, it's being done to degrade Hamas ability to fight. Hamas can't defend themselves against the IAF but a ground assault is a different matter. It can't win but it can go down fighting, the more of them that are already dead, the fewer the men the IDF will lose.
The Israel government aren't baby eating monsters slavering over the chance to murder Palestinian children, they are hard-headed politicians who are making practical and very ruthless decisions with one eye on domestic opinion and another on international opinion that actually matters (ie in Washington). The Arab street and the European one for that matter is simply insignificant. They don't want to actively harm the civilian population in Gaza but they're very willing to accept there will be collateral damage.

Tell me more about this coalition of hard headed politicians making practical decisions Micki

 

[LDC]

Hamas don't represent Palestinians or any sort of liberatory vision or practice, and it's shocking to see people on the left equate them with all Palestinians and forget that they've destroyed and continue to repress anything at all better, and also likely don't give much of a fuck about what's going to happen to people in Gaza now, probably part of their grand plan.

 

[Spymaster]

No, see my other post just now. My point is that it ALL needs understanding in terms of consequences and systems. Not just one side of it.

But that's not what you and others are attempting to do. The default position here is that the creation and defence of the state of Israel is fundamentally immoral, so that can be used to whitewash any action against it or its people, no matter how heinous.

QED this thread.

 

[kabbes]

But that's not what you and others are attempting to do. The default position here is that the creation and defence of the state of Israel is fundamentally immoral, so that can be used to whitewash any action against it or its people, no matter how heinous.

You’re really going to have to back that up with some evidence. Particularly since you are trying to tell me what my own belief is and, of the two of us, I definitely am the expert on what my own belief is.

 

[Spymaster]

You’re really going to have to back that up with some evidence. Particularly since you are trying to tell me what my own belief is and, of the two of us, I definitely am the expert on what my own belief is.

How long have you been posting on these boards?