Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[ska invita]

BTW when reports say the US is concerned about what happens post-war as there doesn't seem to be a plan, I dont believe its about whether the Palestinian Authority take over, or one or two state solutions, I think it means what will happen to the hundreds of thousands of Gazan refugees. The Israeli plan is they can go to the sea or starve in Gaza, but not surprisingly that hasn't satisfied US strategists.

 

[andysays]

It’s funny now the “oh noes anti semitism”nutters have gone, people can almost start to see what the loons were getting so upset about.
The world is run by psychopaths. Sorry about that. It’s not like anyone was trying to tell you.
Will go put my tinfoil hat back on. Still it’s not like you could stop anything anyway. By not going along with things. Maybe we could do a petition. Or some open mic poetry evening.
I suppose we could start by giving them no votes in the Eurovision Song Contest. That will show them.

This particular "oh noes anti-semitism nutter" is still here Boris, and will be quite happy to point out and challenge any further antisemitic contributions from you or anyone else as and when they appear.

 

[CH1]

The indomitable Chris Hedges has had a bash at saying how that could look.

The Death of Israel

Settler colonial states have a terminal shelf life. Israel is no exception.

chrishedges.substack.com

This is an American view - not a view from Israel or any of the Arab neighbours.
The parallel with Algeria and Ulster is instructive in itself - the author neglects to note that the French were able to end their occupation of Algeria because they still had France.
As regards Northern Ireland - this is even now still playing out even though the process started with Henry the VIIII.
So what is the man thinking? The Israel/Palestine question will be decided on the pages of the New York Times by disillusioned young people (including Jews) who have tired of Israel and Ukraine?
He is arguing morality from a bedrock of cynicism.

 

[Knotted]

I think the strongest part of the Chris Hedges article is the idea that the PA may not be able/willing to manage the occupation of the West Bank going forward. This will be big because Israel struggled to maintain rule after 1967 and then going into the first Intifada. Add that they're probably going to be engaged in Gaza for the foreseeable. For all their military hardware Israel does not have a big pool of population to draw on.

To be honest I thought it was a good article/think piece.

 

[Rimbaud]

I think the strongest part of the Chris Hedges article is the idea that the PA may not be able/willing to manage the occupation of the West Bank going forward. This will be big because Israel struggled to maintain rule after 1967 and then going into the first Intifada. Add that they're probably going to be engaged in Gaza for the foreseeable. For all their military hardware Israel does not have a big pool of population to draw on.

To be honest I thought it was a good article/think piece.

I thought it was good as well. The bit about the PA and how it could lead to a serious uprising in the West Bank is strong, and I also think there might be something in his point about it destroying Israel's mythology. The slaughter in Gaza is not over yet, and the numbers killed from hunger and disease will be many times higher than those directly killed by bombs, this is something that will have a huge impact on how the Jewish world perceives Israel and already seems to be leading to a distancing from Israel.

It isn't predictable how that will effect Israel's future, but it will certainly have an effect. There were reports on liberal Jews leaving Israel even before this started, and a few reports from the beginning of the current flare up of people emigrating. I can imagine that trend will increase, and with it Israel's isolation. I feel the usual tried and trusted Israeli propaganda tactics are overwhelmingly falling on skeptical ears now, it's hard to take seriously the "it's anti-semitic to accuse us of genocide" defense when any fool can see clearly what is happening for themselves.

However I don't feel optimistic. I think things will get yet more horrific.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

This particular "oh noes anti-semitism nutter" is still here Boris, and will be quite happy to point out and challenge any further antisemitic contributions from you or anyone else as and when they appear.

What do you think you are defending or even protecting?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is an American view - not a view from Israel or any of the Arab neighbours.
The parallel with Algeria and Ulster is instructive in itself - the author neglects to note that the French were able to end their occupation of Algeria because they still had France.
As regards Northern Ireland - this is even now still playing out even though the process started with Henry the VIIII.
So what is the man thinking? The Israel/Palestine question will be decided on the pages of the New York Times by disillusioned young people (including Jews) who have tired of Israel and Ukraine?
He is arguing morality from a bedrock of cynicism.

Morality has been Israel's big schtick, though. We are the only democracy in the Middle East. We are the only ones with good Western values, gay rights, etc. Even at the start of this, they were banging on about having the 'Most Moral Army in the World'. It is a line that has always depended on the listener disregarding the treatment of the Palestinians. But that cannot so easily be disregarded now.

The moral case for the existence of Israel is imploding in front of a world audience. That matters.

 

[Pickman's model]

Morality has been Israel's big schtick, though. We are the only democracy in the Middle East. We are the only ones with good Western values, gay rights, etc. Even at the start of this, they were banging on about having the 'Most Moral Army in the World'. It is a line that has always depended on the listener disregarding the treatment of the Palestinians. But that cannot so easily be disregarded now.

The moral case for the existence of Israel is imploding in front of a world audience. That matters.

straight out of the goebbels 'big lie' playbook

 

[Pickman's model]

What do you think you are defending or even protecting?

the thread perhaps

 

[Knotted]

Morality has been Israel's big schtick, though. We are the only democracy in the Middle East. We are the only ones with good Western values, gay rights, etc. Even at the start of this, they were banging on about having the 'Most Moral Army in the World'. It is a line that has always depended on the listener disregarding the treatment of the Palestinians. But that cannot so easily be disregarded now.

The moral case for the existence of Israel is imploding in front of a world audience. That matters.

There are also the ideas that Israel is a plucky little nation surrounded by hostile nations, that it is the only Jewish state, that they built something out of nothing ("made the desert bloom"), a place where Jews can realise their modern national essence through work and the military, where off their own backs Jews have created an industrious state opposed to the lazy, devious, autocratic Arabs some of whom have been raised up to civilised standards.

This is part of the mythos too and that side isn't under threat at all.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

However I don't feel optimistic. I think things will get yet more horrific.

There was an American guy on Ch4 news last night who reckoned it might be 3 or 4 weeks before the U.S. gets serious about asking Israel to downscale their.. military campaign (polite term). In any trivial discussion, that might be a short time, but how many more Palestinians will lose their lives in that time, especially as starvation and disease take a greater toll. Absolutely horrifying to consider.

 

[Rimbaud]

There are also the ideas that Israel is a plucky little nation surrounded by hostile nations, that it is the only Jewish state, that they built something out of nothing ("made the desert bloom"), a place where Jews can realise their modern national essence through work and the military, where off their own backs Jews have created an industrious state opposed to the lazy, devious, autocratic Arabs some of whom have been raised up to civilised standards.

This is part of the mythos too and that side isn't under threat at all.

It looks like a reasonably likely near term future for Israel is for it to become an autocratic and militarised basket case ran by genocidal religious fanatics - if that does turn out to be what Israel is, then that part of the mythos is lost too, all that would be left is siege mentality.

 

[Rimbaud]

The risk of a broader Middle East war is rising | Christopher S Chivvis

Pressure is mounting on Biden to strike the Houthis, but that could mean war across Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Iran

www.theguardian.com

Worst case scenario of course is the US somehow being dragged into a war with Iran igniting a larger regional conflict, a distraction which in itself could lead to China going for Taiwan and Russia perhaps testing NATO's Article 5 in the Baltics...

 

[johnwesley]

Israel has reached a state of pure evil now for all the world to see.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are also the ideas that Israel is a plucky little nation surrounded by hostile nations, that it is the only Jewish state, that they built something out of nothing ("made the desert bloom"), a place where Jews can realise their modern national essence through work and the military, where off their own backs Jews have created an industrious state opposed to the lazy, devious, autocratic Arabs some of whom have been raised up to civilised standards.

This is part of the mythos too and that side isn't under threat at all.

That could come under threat from within Israel itself. If Israel turns from a country of net Jewish immigration into a country of net Jewish emigration, that spells big trouble. Literally a case of 'Fuck this for a game of soldiers'.

 

[planetgeli]

This particular "oh noes anti-semitism nutter" is still here Boris, and will be quite happy to point out and challenge any further antisemitic contributions from you or anyone else as and when they appear.

And I, for one, salute you for that. It's a job that needs doing. But it makes me even more bewildered that some people have left this thread. It is not an unmoderated hole of anti-semitism. It's full of a group of people beyond appalled at what is happening in front of our eyes.

And it just makes me wonder why would someone leave this thread or deliberately ignore it. How can you, any human let alone a lefty/anarchist/take your pick one, not have something to say about genocide? How can anyone leave this alone, because their upset at some posters trumps what is happening in Palestine?

I'd like to hear their views. More views. Differing views (there are notable differences in some views here, but it could be wider).

I just can't believe what we are seeing, if perpetrated by any other country in the world, would get a free ride like that. And it does make me think it's down to being scared of criticizing Jews because of the anti-semitism issue, where the irony is we are criticizing a state actor, not a religion. If you even think of this being anti-semitic, you are on the wrong page.

 

[Rimbaud]

And I, for one, salute you for that. It's a job that needs doing. But it makes me even more bewildered that some people have left this thread. It is not an unmoderated hole of anti-semitism. It's full of a group of people beyond appalled at what is happening in front of our eyes.

And it just makes me wonder why would someone leave this thread or deliberately ignore it. How can you, any human let alone a lefty/anarchist/take your pick one, not have something to say about genocide? How can anyone leave this alone, because their upset at some posters trumps what is happening in Palestine?

I'd like to hear their views. More views. Differing views (there are notable differences in some views here, but it could be wider).

I just can't believe what we are seeing, if perpetrated by any other country in the world, would get a free ride like that. And it does make me think it's down to being scared of criticizing Jews because of the anti-semitism issue, where the irony is we are criticizing a state actor, not a religion. If you even think of this being anti-semitic, you are on the wrong page.

I'm also baffled by that behaviour but the people who announced they are ignoring the thread also refused to explain why, so...

What I would guess is that for whatever reason they did not recognise that what is happening is far more serious than the usual cycle of terror attacks followed by Israeli reprisals, and were perceiving those who did recognise as having an irrational axe to grind against Israel bordering on anti-semitism.

Now that 85% of the population of Gaza are violently displaced, at least a quarter of the population are starving with Israel blocking food aid, the vast majority of hospitals destroyed, and 20,000 mostly civilians dead including 8,000 children later, and no indication from Israel that it has any intention of winding down anytime soon, I wonder if they are starting to change their tune, and if not how many dead it will take for that to happen.

 

[CH1]

As a relief from the hate I thought this might interest people - especially in view of current UK policy towards Rwanda. There is other stuff about Jewish insurgents being deported to Eritrea believe it or not. You couldn't make it up when it comes to
masses of people becoming shipped round the world - or otherwise displaced

 

[PTK]

And I, for one, salute you for that. It's a job that needs doing. But it makes me even more bewildered that some people have left this thread. It is not an unmoderated hole of anti-semitism. It's full of a group of people beyond appalled at what is happening in front of our eyes.

And it just makes me wonder why would someone leave this thread or deliberately ignore it. How can you, any human let alone a lefty/anarchist/take your pick one, not have something to say about genocide? How can anyone leave this alone, because their upset at some posters trumps what is happening in Palestine?

I'd like to hear their views. More views. Differing views (there are notable differences in some views here, but it could be wider).

I just can't believe what we are seeing, if perpetrated by any other country in the world, would get a free ride like that. And it does make me think it's down to being scared of criticizing Jews because of the anti-semitism issue, where the irony is we are criticizing a state actor, not a religion. If you even think of this being anti-semitic, you are on the wrong page.

I seem to remember genocide in Rwanda getting a "free ride".

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think people are entitled to post where they want without being judged for their absence from particular places. There can be all kinds of reasons why people don't post on certain subjects. Could be that there is such an overwhelming sense of despair that it feels hard to say anything. Could be that there is such a sense of helplessness that posting a funny pic up of a cat is the only way people can bear to engage atm. I don't judge that. Whatever your pov, this is not a thread for being self-righteous, imo.

 

[planetgeli]

I seem to remember genocide in Rwanda getting a "free ride".

I wasn't here then so I can't really comment but Rwanda is not so tied to our 'interests' as Israel. Shit is happening now in Sudan that apparently outdoes Israel, but there's not a 300 page thread on that. Or Yemen. Or etc etc. I post on the Yemen thread but I can understand posters who don't, who either have no knowledge/experience/something to relate it to. But this is Israel. Major significance, major geo-political interest - and genocide. I don't get why some people are off this thread.

 

[ska invita]

I think people are entitled to post where they want without being judged for their absence from particular places. There can be all kinds of reasons why people don't post on certain subjects. Could be that there is such an overwhelming sense of despair that it feels hard to say anything. Could be that there is such a sense of helplessness that posting a funny pic up of a cat is the only way people can bear to engage atm. I don't judge that. Whatever your pov, this is not a thread for being self-righteous, imo.

yeah true but we've also been told by some its because of terrible politics and not being critical thinkers etc
no doubt many reasons

 

[planetgeli]

I think people are entitled to post where they want without being judged for their absence from particular places. There can be all kinds of reasons why people don't post on certain subjects. Could be that there is such an overwhelming sense of despair that it feels hard to say anything. Could be that there is such a sense of helplessness that posting a funny pic up of a cat is the only way people can bear to engage atm. I don't judge that. Whatever your pov, this is not a thread for being self-righteous, imo.

I specifically posted asking for other views, ones that might challenge the pretty narrow line here, ones that might challenge my own morality. That's the opposite of self-righteousness.

 

[Pickman's model]

I seem to remember genocide in Rwanda getting a "free ride".

There was rather more wringing of hands

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I wasn't here then so I can't really comment but Rwanda is not so tied to our 'interests' as Israel. Shit is happening now in Sudan that apparently outdoes Israel, but there's not a 300 page thread on that. Or Yemen. Or etc etc. I post on the Yemen thread but I can understand posters who don't, who either have no knowledge/experience/something to relate it to. But this is Israel. Major significance, major geo-political interest - and genocide. I don't get why some people are off this thread.

Sudan is an example where my knowledge is limited and I don't have much constructive to say. Also the UK government isn't actively supporting one side's genocide in Sudan. Rightly or wrongly, I am more invested in Israel/Palestine right now.

There will always be omissions people can point at. From a quick search, the most deadly war of this century passed by on here with few comments, as it did on most of the Western press.

 

[PTK]

I wasn't here then so I can't really comment but Rwanda is not so tied to our 'interests' as Israel. Shit is happening now in Sudan that apparently outdoes Israel, but there's not a 300 page thread on that. Or Yemen. Or etc etc. I post on the Yemen thread but I can understand posters who don't, who either have no knowledge/experience/something to relate it to. But this is Israel. Major significance, major geo-political interest - and genocide. I don't get why some people are off this thread.

I agree. The government of our country is complicit in gross violations of international law in the Gaza Strip (to put in mildly), giving diplomatic and military support to the state engaging in those crimes.

 

[weltweit]

...
And it just makes me wonder why would someone leave this thread or deliberately ignore it. How can you, any human let alone a lefty/anarchist/take your pick one, not have something to say about genocide? How can anyone leave this alone, because their upset at some posters trumps what is happening in Palestine?

I'd like to hear their views. More views. Differing views (there are notable differences in some views here, but it could be wider).

I'm also baffled by that behaviour but the people who announced they are ignoring the thread also refused to explain why, so...

I put this thread on ignore, and the other war threads for a few days at a time, because 1) it is never ending and always bounces to the top of the pile when someone or other posts the latest atrocity and despite my feelings about the protagonists I don't want to be reminded of these wars every few minutes daily 2) There is nothing I can do about it, I can't even save one life, no matter what I read or write on here, I am not ignoring protest threads 3) I am not in fact ignoring the issues, every few days I will unignore the threads and read them, then they go back on ignore. I am merely protecting my own sanity.

 

[Rimbaud]

I put this thread on ignore, and the other war threads for a few days at a time, because 1) it is never ending and always bounces to the top of the pile when someone or other posts the latest atrocity and despite my feelings about the protagonists I don't want to be reminded of these wars every few minutes daily 2) There is nothing I can do about it, I can't even save one life, no matter what I read or write on here, I am not ignoring protest threads 3) I am not in fact ignoring the issues, every few days I will unignore the threads and read them, then they go back on ignore. I am merely protecting my own sanity.

I was thinking specifically about the people who posted several times to announce what a horrible car crash this discussion is and how they are ignoring it without elaborating on specifics, not about a lack of engagement on the thread in general.

 

[PTK]

Those who want an end to this war ought, in my opinion, to contact Labour councillors in their area, and ask that the Labour group on the council send a message to Keir Starmer asking him to demand that the government does all it can to secure an immediate ceasefire. The more pressure on Starmer from people in his own party, the more likely he is to change his position.

What we need, of course, is industrial action. Dockers in Belgium and elsewhere are apparently refusing to handle Israeli cargo. We need workers in this country to boycott the State of Israel until it stops punishing the people of the Gaza Strip. Perhaps people in the relevant unions can put forward motions in their branches to that effect.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I was thinking specifically about the people who posted several times to announce what a horrible car crash this discussion is and how they are ignoring it without elaborating on specifics, not about a lack of engagement on the thread in general.

Not worth worrying about. I don't agree with geli that we're potentially missing out on interesting alternative points of view. Anyone who thinks this thread has been a car crash has some pretty warped and misguided ideas and assumptions imo. Thread's probably better off without them. The only people who are going to respond to this request are likely to be those like ww who wasn't doing that anyway.