Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[tim]

That could come under threat from within Israel itself. If Israel turns from a country of net Jewish immigration into a country of net Jewish emigration, that spells big trouble. Literally a case of 'Fuck this for a game of soldiers'.

There are 7 million Jews living in Israel, the vast majority of those are not in a position to emigrate not least because there isn't anywhere they could emigrate to. The same is true for the Palestinians there are still camps in neighbouring countries for those driven out in 1948. In most cases they live in miserable conditions denied civil rights in the states they live in, and facing violence as they protest.

Israeli Arabs face the same dilemma. I was talking to a colleague earlier this afternoon who has in-laws (Maronite )on the Israeli side of the border with Lebanon. They hate the situation but they're stuck.

 

[Gramsci]

The indomitable Chris Hedges has had a bash at saying how that could look.

The Death of Israel

Settler colonial states have a terminal shelf life. Israel is no exception.

chrishedges.substack.com

Israel has depended on aid from USA over the years. Which Biden is continuing. Quote from the article. USA/Biden -

. will try to distance itself rhetorically, but at the same time it will funnel the billions of dollars of weapons demanded by Israel — including $14.3 billion in supplemental military aid to augment the $3.8 billion in annual aid — to “finish the job.” It is a full partner in Israel’s genocide project.

Over the years this outside support has enabled Israel to keep its economy going. The military industrial sector being built up over the years. Run by ex leading IDF members.

Its a big part of the economy. Helped by aid from US.

The other aid Israel indirectly, for example, gets is from the EU which helps bankroll PA. Thus saving Israel money in policing the Occupied West Bank.

Unless this kind direct and indirect support of Israel stops I don't see why it cannot carry on indefinitely.

Its reason imo that public protest of all kinds is needed to keep pressure up on the politicians. If Israel becomes a Pariah state that will be due to public pressure. Not political establishments.

Whatever internal arguments go on in Israel when it comes down to it , except for a minority, most in Israel appear to rally behind the State in time of war like this.

Another analogy with the past. That I was reminded off when reading this was reading The Black Jacobins about the Haitian slave revolt

The French colonists became divided amongst themselves due to the French revolution and thus there ability to keep the slaves down was weakened. Given the slaves a glimmer of opportunity. Even then it was touch and go. With the slave revolt also taking advantage of rivalries between Imperial powers in Caribbean.

If Israel as a society internally becomes more polarised long term perhaps its ability to keep down the Palestinians by force will be weakened.

 

[tim]

Another analogy with the past. That I was reminded off when reading this was reading The Black Jacobins about the Haitian slave revolt

The French colonists became divided amongst themselves due to the French revolution and thus there ability to keep the slaves down was weakened. Given the slaves a glimmer of opportunity. Even then it was touch and go. With the slave revolt also taking advantage of rivalries between Imperial powers in Caribbean.

If Israel as a society internally becomes more polarised long term perhaps its ability to keep down the Palestinians by force will be weakened.

There are about as many Israelis as there are Palestinians and they are much better armed and would remain so even without external support. In Haiti the slave population far outnumbered the slave owner population. The Palestinians are not in a position to overthrow the Israeli state.

And with regard to that external support, in the very unlikely event if the USA bailing out Russia would have no qualms about taking their place

 

[Gramsci]

This is an American view - not a view from Israel or any of the Arab neighbours.
The parallel with Algeria and Ulster is instructive in itself - the author neglects to note that the French were able to end their occupation of Algeria because they still had France.

Settler colonialism does take different forms. Your right to say France still had France to go back to. Zionism is a specific kind of settler colonialism whose link to the an Imperial Centre/ Metropole was not present. Except in a very loose form that it had some support from British Empire ( Balfour declaration) and grew out of ideas of nationalism in Europe.

I think the point he meant about the Algerian war was that the way the French brutally tried to put it down led to it losing a lot of support. And this was a brutal war on both sides.

 

[cupid_stunt]

UNSC passes resolution on Gaza aid delivery​

The UN security council has passed the resolution on Gaza aid delivery with 13 votes in favour, no votes against and two abstentions.

Russia and the US abstained from voting on the resolution. LINK

Russia and the US abstained, the twats!

I guess the fact that it passed is something, but I doubt Israel will take much, if any, notice of it, especially with the US abstaining, but at least the UK voted for it this time,

 

[planetgeli]

Russia and the US abstained, the twats!

I guess the fact that it passed is something, but I doubt Israel will take much, if any, notice of it, especially with the US abstaining, but at least the UK voted for it this time,

Haven't followed that so I don't know exactly what the resolution said but I assumed Gaza aid delivery gave the game away.

In light of which, can someone explain the logic of the Russian Ambassador to me. Not the politics and why Russia might find an excuse to abstain, but the logic of this?

The Russian ambassador to the UN, Vasily Nebenzya, is now speaking.

He criticised the draft resolution, saying: “By signing off on this, the council would essentially be giving the Israeli armed forces complete freedom of movement for further clearing of the Gaza Strip, and anyone who votes in favour of the text as it is currently … would bear responsibility for that essentially becoming complicit in the destruction of Gaza.

“Moreover, the text of the draft has lost a reference to condemnations of all indiscriminate attacks on civilians. What signal … this send
to the international community that the security council is giving Israel a green light for a war crimes,” he added.





The second bit makes sense, if he's right, but the first bit? And if he felt that way why not vote against?

Fuck html. All this crossing out is because of brackets on the Guardian.

 

[planetgeli]

Answered my own question.

“Washington is playing an extremely underhanded game of forcing into the text an essential license for Israel to kill Palestinian civilians in Gaza under the pretext and record of creating conditions for cessation of hostilities,” he said.

Any idea what they 'forced into the text'?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are 7 million Jews living in Israel, the vast majority of those are not in a position to emigrate not least because there isn't anywhere they could emigrate to.

The trend has already started, in that the numbers emigrating are going up and the numbers immigrating are going down. It will happen as it always happens, with mostly young people, often with marketable qualifications, leaving to find a better life elsewhere - be it in Europe, North America, Australia or wherever.

There has been a massive demographic change in Israel in recent years. Half of all foreign-born Israelis today were born in the former USSR. If they stop coming and other Israelis, mostly from other backgrounds, leave in larger numbers, you could easily see a sustained net emigration.

I'm not suggesting that 7 million Jews are suddenly going to up sticks. But if 100,000 do so each year, say, then the country has a problem. It's not that right now, but it could be if the situation continues to deteriorate with the fascists in charge. And such a process would contain feedback loops. The Eastern European and Russian immigrants are a major source of support for the far right. The more they dominate, the more others are going to want to get out.

 

[teqniq]

Answered my own question.

“Washington is playing an extremely underhanded game of forcing into the text an essential license for Israel to kill Palestinian civilians in Gaza under the pretext and record of creating conditions for cessation of hostilities,” he said.

Any idea what they 'forced into the text'?

It appears to be more a question of 'watering down' according to this:

JOE BIDEN IS DRIVING THE U.S. INTO ISOLATION TO DEFEND ISRAEL’S WAR CRIMES

 

[agricola]

Answered my own question.

“Washington is playing an extremely underhanded game of forcing into the text an essential license for Israel to kill Palestinian civilians in Gaza under the pretext and record of creating conditions for cessation of hostilities,” he said.

Any idea what they 'forced into the text'?

Probably hyperbole for the way the text was watered down over the week, with the removal of the call for ceasefire or an effective delivery of aid into Gaza.

That said, the fact it has passed the SC is the important thing - Netanyahu won't be able to resist flaunting how irrelevant it is, and its failure will probably spur a much harder resolution that the US will be less able (and less willing) to block. Of course we will probably see thousands more women and children slaughtered to get to that point.

 

[Gramsci]

There are about as many Israelis as there are Palestinians and they are much better armed and would remain so even without external support. In Haiti the slave population far outnumbered the slave owner population. The Palestinians are not in a position to overthrow the Israeli state.

And with regard to that external support, in the very unlikely event if the USA bailing out Russia would have no qualms about taking their place

Just out of interest if Israel state stopped get massive military aid from anyone you would not have a problem with that?

 

[Mezzer]

Wonder what this stolen Banksy was designed to highlight

Man does a runner with new Banksy less than an hour after it was put up

Banksy confirmed it was his on a social media post minutes before it was stolen.

metro.co.uk

 

[Pickman's model]

Wonder what this stolen Banksy was designed to highlight

Man does a runner with new Banksy less than an hour after it was put up

Banksy confirmed it was his on a social media post minutes before it was stolen.

metro.co.uk

Art theft

 

[Gramsci]

There are about as many Israelis as there are Palestinians and they are much better armed and would remain so even without external support. In Haiti the slave population far outnumbered the slave owner population. The Palestinians are not in a position to overthrow the Israeli state.

Not the point I was making.

I did say in my post Israel state has been getting direct and indirect aid which has played a part in keeping it going.

That internal division in Israel society may and I emphasis may reduce state effectiveness.

As for Haitian revolt. Having larger numbers didn't mean slave revolts would succeed. There were many slave revolts across Carribbean and most didn't succeed.

On Overthrow Israeli state.

On Haiti the leader Toussaint Louverture the leader of revolt wanted to abolish slavery. Not sending all the French back. In fact he encouraged the plantation owners to stay. As he saw the economic need to bring in income to Haiti from the sugar plantations. At the time it was the wealthiest colony in Carribbean.

He was also supporter and supported by french revolutionaries. He wanted probably some kind of Dominion status as part of France along with abolishment of slavery. And income being more fairly distributed so the former slave population could have decent life

In case of Israel it could remain as a single state. But not a Zionist one. One where both Israeli Jews and Palestinians could live together as equals.

 

[tim]

Just out of interest if Israel state stopped get massive military aid from anyone you would not have a problem with that?

I'd have no problem with it. I'd also like to see efforts to curb and boycott exports from the Israeli large arms industry which seems to be very profitable. The Gulf dictatorship of Bahrain and the UAE amongst their customers

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/israel-reports-record-125-bln-defence-exports-24-them-arab-partners-2023-06-13/

 

[Mezzer]

Art theft

 

[Pickman's model]

View attachment 405412

Stop droning on

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Considering it's meant to be a comedy news programme, I thought it was a pretty thoughtful episode on the whole shit show...

(It's Last Week Tonight's programme on the Israel-Hamas War)

At the beginning of all this all the left leaning late night us comedy shows we're openly in support of "friends" Israel. I remember being quite surprised how far Colbert went (but forget now what he said). I was expecting more of a cowardly avoidance of the topic. I did wonder what John Oliver would eventually say.
There has been a shift since the beginning though, even if it is an avoidance the more 'problematic' points. Unwavering support of Israels 'struggle' is no longer trumpeted. Information about the history appears to be flowing more freely rather than just being brushed away as 'complicated'.

 

[Gramsci]

There are 7 million Jews living in Israel, the vast majority of those are not in a position to emigrate not least because there isn't anywhere they could emigrate to. The same is true for the Palestinians there are still camps in neighbouring countries for those driven out in 1948. In most cases they live in miserable conditions denied civil rights in the states they live in, and facing violence as they protest.

Israeli Arabs face the same dilemma. I was talking to a colleague earlier this afternoon who has in-laws (Maronite )on the Israeli side of the border with Lebanon. They hate the situation but they're stuck.

No its not

The reason Palestinians are still living in camps is two fold.

Israel , despite UN resolution years ago, refuses to let them come back to their land.

That imo is the fundamental denial of civil and human rights. And the ongoing cause of the conflict.

There is somewhere they would like to "emigrate" back to and that is their homes stolen from them by Zionists in 48. Which is within living memory. I heard news report of someone whose Grandfather was killed in Gaza by the Israeli bombing. He had been ethnically cleansed by Zionists from his home in 48. This is not ancient history. Its an injustice that needs dealing with.

Palestinians were being killed in the so called border wars in 50s. Palestinians trying to get back to their farms. IDF had a shoot to kill policy.

Second is the Palestinians often do not want to call their camps a permanent home. This is a form of resistance to their forced expulsion by Zionists in 48. They tenaciously hold onto right to return.

To add the expulsion of Palestinians continued after 48. After 67 some Palestinians were expelled and homes demolished.

The cause of this has been Zionists. Not surrounding Arab countries.

Arab countries and peoples never asked for this. And were not the cause of the refugee problem.

Zionism was.

There is not a level playing field here.

And btw those Palestinians who became refugees were a problem dumped onto other countries / UNRWA and other NGOs. The cost of this has never been met by Israel. State of Israel is good at dumping problems onto others for its benefit.

 

[tim]

No its not

The reason Palestinians are still living in camps is two fold.

Israel , despite UN resolution years ago, refuses to let them come back to their land.

That imo is the fundamental denial of civil and human rights. And the ongoing cause of the conflict.

Second is the Palestinians often do not want to call their camps a permanent home. This is a form of resistance to their forced expulsion by Zionists in 48. They tenaciously hold onto right to return.

To add the expulsion of Palestinians continued after 48. After 67 some Palestinians were expelled and homes demolished.

The cause of this has been Zionists. Not surrounding Arab countries.

Arab countries and peoples never asked for this. And were not the cause of the refugee problem.

Zionism was.

There is not a level playing field here.

The 270,000 Palestinian refugees and their descendants born in Lebanon are denied not just the right to citizenship but also the right to live outside the camps and to work in many sectors of the economy. One of the concerns is that granting rights to a predominantly Sunni Muslim community would unbalance the current sectarian political structure where power is shared by the political elites if the various religious groups.

https://www.unrwa.org/activity/protection-lebanon

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The 270,000 Palestinian refugees and their descendants born in Lebanon are denied not just the right to citizenship but also the right to live outside the camps and to work in many sectors of the economy. One of the concerns is that granting rights to a predominantly Sunni Muslim community would unbalance the current sectarian political structure where power is shared by the political elites if the various religious groups.

https://www.unrwa.org/activity/protection-lebanon

It is very true that it is not just Israel than doesn't want the Palestinians. It's also true of Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt. Nobody wants them or cares much about them until they force themselves into view. That's always been true. However, it is the Israelis who dispossessed them. It is the Israelis who kill them.

 

[Gramsci]

The 270,000 Palestinian refugees and their descendants born in Lebanon are denied not just the right to citizenship but also the right to live outside the camps and to work in many sectors of the economy. One of the concerns is that granting rights to a predominantly Sunni Muslim community would unbalance the current sectarian political structure where power is shared by the political elites if the various religious groups.

https://www.unrwa.org/activity/protection-lebanon

Do you not think that those Palestinians who want to return to their homes in Palestine/ Israel should not have that as a right?

 

[Gramsci]

It is very true that it is not just Israel than doesn't want the Palestinians. It's also true of Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt. Nobody wants them or cares much about them until they force themselves into view. That's always been true. However, it is the Israelis who dispossessed them. It is the Israelis who kill them.

Agree with your post.

A qualification.

Jordan in 48 did deal with Zionists it would get West Bank. Palestinians were made Jordanian citizens. More to do with the Jordanian King wanting to extend his kingdom than anything else.

TBF the Jordanian army put up a good fight against Zionists in 48. Who emboldened by success in expelling Palestinians made moves on West Bank. Which under UN partition plan they did not get. This despite the deal they had made with King of Jordan. Who kept his side of bargain.

The Jordanian army was one of the most effective fighting forces against Zionism in 48. However unlike the Zionists they kept to the bargain made and did not interfere with the ethnic cleansing by Zionists outside area agreed.

 

[tim]

Do you not think that those Palestinians who want to return to their homes in Palestine/ Israel should not have that as a right?

They should have the right but it is not something that realistically is going to happen in the foreseeable future. You know that as well as I do.

I don't think that refugees, let alone the descendants of people who sought refuge either after 1948 or 1967 should should be treated as as a subordinate population wherever they currently reside.

Returning to the issue of the discrimination against, and oppression of Palestinians in neighbouring countries, over a hundred thousand Palestinians who had been living in Syria have been displaced for a second time because they weren't seen as being loyal enough to the brutal Assad regime. Palestine refugee communities are marginalised not because they wish to remain pure and not participate fully in the societies in which they live, but because the regimes that they live under wish to keep them subordinate.

‘Afraid of return’: Palestinians fearful of life in Yarmouk camp

Some 160,000 Palestinians were forced to flee Yarmouk refugee camp in Damascus throughout the 10-year-long war.

www.google.com

 

[Gramsci]

They should have the right but it is not something that realistically is going to happen in the foreseeable future. You know that as well as I do.

I don't think that refugees, let alone the descendants of people who sought refuge either after 1948 or 1967 should should be treated as as a subordinate population wherever they currently reside.

Returning to the issue of the discrimination against, and oppression of Palestinians in neighbouring countries, over a hundred thousand Palestinians who had been living in Syria have been displaced for a second time because they weren't seen as being loyal enough to the brutal Assad regime. Palestine refugee communities are marginalised not because they wish to remain pure and not participate fully in the societies in which they live, but because the regimes that they live under wish to keep them subordinate.

‘Afraid of return’: Palestinians fearful of life in Yarmouk camp

Some 160,000 Palestinians were forced to flee Yarmouk refugee camp in Damascus throughout the 10-year-long war.

www.google.com

You are disingenuous.

Dont tell me what is realistic.

I tell you what your an apologist for Zionism who pretends to be oh so realistic.

TBH Im wondering if your some kind of Hasbara bot

 

[mojo pixy]

TBH Im wondering if your some kind of Hasbara bot

This is unnecessary, and a bit silly. Nothing tim posts is worthy of it.

 

[Lurdan]

You are disingenuous.

Dont tell me what is realistic.

I tell you what your an apologist for Zionism who pretends to be oh so realistic.

TBH Im wondering if your some kind of Hasbara bot

Where is this nonsense coming from?

 

[mojo pixy]

Where is this nonsense coming from?

10.30pm on a Friday? One guess...

 

[Gramsci]

This is unnecessary, and a bit silly.

Ive been following this thread from the start. And tried to post up reasonable posts based on my reading.

Tim has from the start been pursuing this line. When pushed says those who support Palestinian rights are suspect of anti semitism.

Despite what has happened in Gaza has not changed their tune.

I have them on ignore but they reply to my posts. Maybe I should not.

There whole thing is that criticism of Israel is picking on it when others are just as bad. And that people who take to much of an interest in Palestine are either conscious or unconsciously anti semitic.

Maybe I should not rise to it.

 

[two sheds]

I don't see that in tim 's posts at all.