Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[agricola]

I think it's difficult to underestimate how much this has impacted Muslims. I hate talking about "the Muslim community" but it is still sort of a thing and working in a predominantly Pakistani/Bangladeshi area and I see Palestinian flags everywhere - on houses, on businesses, on lampposts (even if they are taken down pretty quickly), painted onto vans. I very rarely see eg. Vote Labour stickers in windows come the elections. This morning 9am I even saw a solitary old man marching down the street with a flag getting honks of approval. (On the other hand the rightwing "patriot" types hate it - it's an affront to wave any flag other than the Union Flag/George Cross.)

Both our local MP's were junior members of the shadow cabinet and both have resigned. I posted the email I got back from my MP on the other thread but I also received a hard copy in the post.

Right now I think this is politically big and I also don't think it's going to go away. Gaza is not going to return to "normal" even if normal was utterly miserable, best scenario we're looking at direct Israeli rule and repression worst scenario we're looking at complete ethnic cleansing into the Sinai. The settlement of the West Bank and the harassment, incarceration and murder of the Palestinian population has stepped up a notch in a way that looks permanent and a new authoritarianism in "Israel proper" has set in.

I agree with the first bit, and would add that there is an almost complete absence of any kind of support of the position of the other side. I know this is only anecdotal but I do not know anyone who isn't horrified by what the Israeli government are doing, either down here in London or back home in Wales. The division that littlebabyjesus mentioned in post #9383 is real and very deep.

As for the outcome of this - the way it is going I think Gaza is much more likely to be free than not afterwards. The Israeli government might kill thousands or tens of thousands more, but they have already lost and none of what they propose doing is going to solve the security problem or restore ties regionally or further afield. Ethnically cleansing the Strip is going to put them in a far worse boat than Apartheid-era South Africa was in.

 

[tim]

I disagree. Millions of people have taken to the streets across the world to protest against this. In large parts of the world, both governments and people are protesting. In other parts, it's just the people, causing a sharp disconnect between politicians and their populations. And the whole thing is playing out in public. Whole cities flattened, tens of thousands dead and 2 million people displaced as the world looks on.

I was one of the millions who marched in 2003 against the war in Iraq. I hoped at the time that they couldn't ignore international protests on that scale.

 

[teqniq]

And now this

The UN says more than 1 in 4 people in Gaza are starving because of war

A report from the United Nations finds that more than half a million people in Gaza are starving because there's not enough food entering the territory since the outbreak of war more than 10 weeks ago.

apnews.com

 

[Karl Masks]

It does seem that Israel has lost/losing the propaganda war. Do they care? Probably not as long as the US is willing to veto everything and arm them. The whole thing is so distburingly horrific.

 

[planetgeli]

I'm with the skeptics. Backed by the USA, Israel is not about to die. The biggest threat to it is what comes out of this 'post-Hamas'. It won't be Hamas-lite.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I was one of the millions who marched in 2003 against the war in Iraq. I hoped at the time that they couldn't ignore international protests on that scale.

Yep, me too. We were wrong. In fact, it broke something in me. And of course they have ignored the protests now so far. But following on from what agricola said, back in 2003 there were people who supported the Iraq war. Misguidedly, they defended the line that 'Saddam was a bad person, good to get rid of him'. The equivalent now would be 'got to go at Gaza hard to get rid of Hamas as Hamas are bad'. There are few such voices this time. That line sounds psychotic.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm with the skeptics. Backed by the USA, Israel is not about to die. The biggest threat to it is what comes out of this 'post-Hamas'. It won't be Hamas-lite.

International support is falling apart, though. France has ended its support. Britain and Germany are edging away. Soon it may only be the US left. And the US has to think about its other regional priorities, such as Egypt. Can indefinite, unconditional US support be relied upon?

 

[krtek a houby]

International support is falling apart, though. France has ended its support. Britain and Germany are edging away. Soon it may only be the US left. And the US has to think about its other regional priorities, such as Egypt. Can indefinite, unconditional US support be relied upon?

Yes, although the Biden administration may be chiding Netanyahu - reckon that's as far as it goes.

When Trump regains power, it will be full throttle support.

 

[planetgeli]

International support is falling apart, though. France has ended its support. Britain and Germany are edging away. Soon it may only be the US left. And the US has to think about its other regional priorities, such as Egypt. Can indefinite, unconditional US support be relied upon?

Yes. The aircraft carrier in the Middle East remember.

Israel trumps Egypt, and Egypt certainly don't want to be the solution to the 'Palestinian problem' anyway. France ended it's support when a Frenchman got killed, because genocide and a humanitarian catastrophe weren't quite enough for them. Britain means Cameron in your sentence. Cameron. It's come to this.

 

[Wilf]

International support is falling apart, though. France has ended its support. Britain and Germany are edging away. Soon it may only be the US left. And the US has to think about its other regional priorities, such as Egypt. Can indefinite, unconditional US support be relied upon?

That's for the moment though isn't it? Yes, there will be some peeling away, given the obscenities happening how and some changed attitudes to Israel perhaps, given the statements coming out of the Israeli leadership and others. But whether that shifts things 'after the dust settles' (awful pun just about intended) is another matter.

I'm with the skeptics. Backed by the USA, Israel is not about to die. The biggest threat to it is what comes out of this 'post-Hamas'. It won't be Hamas-lite.

This - future bombings and acts of terror', both in Israel and the West - will also, ultimately, keep the USA and UK on side

 

[ska invita]

And the US has to think about its other regional priorities, such as Egypt. Can indefinite, unconditional US support be relied upon?

El Sisi hates Hamas.
And yes US support is solid, they've supported this all, knowing full well what it means. Must be factored in

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

It’s funny now the “oh noes anti semitism”nutters have gone, people can almost start to see what the loons were getting so upset about.
The world is run by psychopaths. Sorry about that. It’s not like anyone was trying to tell you.
Will go put my tinfoil hat back on. Still it’s not like you could stop anything anyway. By not going along with things. Maybe we could do a petition. Or some open mic poetry evening.
I suppose we could start by giving them no votes in the Eurovision Song Contest. That will show them.

 

[Wilf]

It’s funny now the “oh noes anti semitism”nutters have gone, people can almost start to see what the loons were getting so upset about.
The world is run by psychopaths. Sorry about that. It’s not like anyone was trying to tell you.
Will go put my tinfoil hat back on. Still it’s not like you could stop anything anyway. By not going along with things. Maybe we could do a petition. Or some open mic poetry evening.
I suppose we could start by giving them no votes in the Eurovision Song Contest. That will show them.

It's certainly the case that anti-semitism has been weaponised by both Israel and the right to the point where everyone feels they have begin every comment with something along the lines of 'I'm criticising Zionism, not the Jewish people'. Whilst that's still true, it feels pretty hollow at a time like this. Should be possible to criticise a murderous regime in simple words and not being able to do that is a victory for that regime. But equally, anything that tips over into 'Jews are like that/shadowy networks/finance capital' and the rest is of no help. It's racist and it's not the reality of the power that Israel exercises. Admittedly, if I was a Palestinian or a Muslim, I wouldn't even be that fussed about those distinctions at the moment.

 

[Gramsci]

It's certainly the case that anti-semitism has been weaponised by both Israel and the right to the point where everyone feels they have begin every comment with something along the lines of 'I'm criticising Zionism, not the Jewish people'. Whilst that's still true, it feels pretty hollow at a time like this. Should be possible to criticise a murderous regime in simple words and not being able to do that is a victory for that regime. But equally, anything that tips over into 'Jews are like that/shadowy networks/finance capital' and the rest is of no help. It's racist and it's not the reality of the power that Israel exercises. Admittedly, if I was a Palestinian or a Muslim, I wouldn't even be that fussed about those distinctions at the moment.

Not just the right.

The traditional view of Labour party going back years was to support the Balfour Declaration and support the Labour Zionism of Ben Gurion and Golda Meir.

Starmer has brought back the Labour party to its original viewpoint which is to support Israel. In that he is continuing what was generally accepted in the Labour party.

 

[Wilf]

Back in UK school excludes pupil, who lost a friend in Gaza, for wearing a lapel badge of Palestine colours.

His parents were threatened with reporting to Prevent.

Parents point out difference in way school dealt with Ukraine.

They had support of other parents at the school.

British-Palestinian Boy ‘Humiliated’ By School for Wearing Flag | Novara Media

An eight-year-old British Palestinian boy with relatives in Gaza has been out of school for a month because staff won’t let him wear a Palestine flag patch on his coat. Now parents are fighting back. Clare Hymer reports.

novaramedia.com

Just back on this, it's a sign of where 'official' opinion is in this country and how far it is from reality. An 8 year old kid who has had friends and family murdered is treated like shit and has their family threatened with Prevent. Just think. And whilst this might be about the scumbags who run this school, fffs banning kids from religious observation, it's also about the government, opposition and much of the press. An atmosphere where a bunch of craven idiots who run a school - an academy not surprisingly - can perceive a child who is mourning and bewildered as somehow linked to terrorism. Had there been a decade of Jewish people being demonised in this country, the 'school leaders' would have been treating Jewish kids just as badly. Fucking weak minded scumbags.

 

[Mezzer]

Yes, although the Biden administration may be chiding Netanyahu - reckon that's as far as it goes.

When Trump regains power, it will be full throttle support.

Difficult as it is to see any good coming out of this, might not a Trumpian America and an increasingly isolated Israel lead to a realignment that should have happened an awful long time ago? I'd like to think so, but won't hold my breath.

 

[Wilf]

Not just the right.

The traditional view of Labour party going back years was to support the Balfour Declaration and support the Labour Zionism of Ben Gurion and Golda Meir.

Starmer has brought back the Labour party to its original viewpoint which is to support Israel. In that he is continuing what was generally accepted in the Labour party.

Yeah, certainly, though I might well be including Labour as part of the right. The stripping out of the left in the party has also been tied into stripping out criticism of Israel and pro=Palestinian sentiment.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Someone has a very good social content team.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes. The aircraft carrier in the Middle East remember.

Israel trumps Egypt, and Egypt certainly don't want to be the solution to the 'Palestinian problem' anyway. France ended it's support when a Frenchman got killed, because genocide and a humanitarian catastrophe weren't quite enough for them. Britain means Cameron in your sentence. Cameron. It's come to this.

Things don't go back to the status quo ante after this, though. For better or worse (may well be worse), I think a lot of possibilities are going to end up on the table, whatever the US might want.

 

[ska invita]

Difficult as it is to see any good coming out of this, might not a Trumpian America and an increasingly isolated Israel lead to a realignment that should have happened an awful long time ago? I'd like to think so, but won't hold my breath.

Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem

 

[Nylock]

Considering it's meant to be a comedy news programme, I thought it was a pretty thoughtful episode on the whole shit show...

(It's Last Week Tonight's programme on the Israel-Hamas War)

 

[spring-peeper]

Gov't to offer 3-year visas to Canadians' extended family in Gaza, starting in 2024

Canada is rolling out new immigration measures including granting temporary visas to individuals in Gaza who are related to Canadians, as well as Israelis and Palestinians already in this country.

www.ctvnews.ca

Noting that many Canadians are concerned about the safety of their loved ones currently in Gaza, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Minister Marc Miller announced Thursday that the government is going to be granting three-year temporary resident visas for extended family members of Canadian citizens and permanent residents.

"So they can come to Canada and be reunited with their family members residing here," he said, while cautioning Canada has no assurances regarding further evacuations from the Hamas-controlled territory.

Miller estimates the new the program will be in effect by Jan. 9, vowing the upcoming holidays won't impede his department's work on this file.

Eligible family members who will be able to apply include: the spouse, common law partner, child regardless of age, grandchild, sibling, parent or grandparent of a Canadian citizen or permanent resident, as well as their immediate family members. Documentation including proof of relationship and biometrics will be required.

Effective Thursday, the federal government is also making fee-exempt study permits or open work permits available for immediate family members of Canadian citizens or permanent residents, provided that they currently live in Canada, and that they left Israel or the Palestinian territories on or after Oct. 7.

"Israelis and Palestinians already in Canada who feel unsafe returning home at this time will also be eligible for the fee-exempt study or open work permits," Miller said.

Only issues with this it 1) getting them out of the Gaza, and 2) January 9th is a long way away.

 

[Mezzer]

Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem

I wasn't implying that Trump isn't pro-Israel, just that other countries might not slavishly follow the US in unequivocally supporting Israel.

 

[spring-peeper]

Human Rights Watch reports:
"Meta’s policies and practices have been silencing voices in support of Palestine and Palestinian human rights on Instagram and Facebook in a wave of heightened censorship of social media amid the hostilities between Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups that began on October 7, 2023. This systemic online censorship has risen against the backdrop of unprecedented violence, including an estimated 1,200 people killed in Israel, largely in the Hamas-led attack on October 7, and over 18,000 Palestinians killed as of December 14, largely as a result of intense Israeli bombardment.

In reviewing the evidence and context associated with each reported case, Human Rights Watch identified six key patterns of undue censorship, each recurring at least 100 times, including
1) removal of posts, stories, and comments;
2) suspension or permanent disabling of accounts;
3) restrictions on the ability to engage with content—such as liking, commenting, sharing, and reposting on stories—for a specific period, ranging from 24 hours to three months;
4) restrictions on the ability to follow or tag other accounts;
5) restrictions on the use of certain features, such as Instagram/Facebook Live, monetization, and recommendation of accounts to non-followers; and
6) “SHADOW BANNING,” the significant decrease in the visibility of an individual’s posts, stories, or account, without notification, due to a reduction in the distribution or reach of content or disabling of searches for accounts.
https://www.hrw.org/.../systemic-censorship-palestine...

 

[PTK]

The U.S. must not provide another $10 billion to Netanyahu’s right-wing extremist government…​

 

[johnwesley]

Could you elaborate? How do you see that panning out?

The indomitable Chris Hedges has had a bash at saying how that could look.

The Death of Israel

Settler colonial states have a terminal shelf life. Israel is no exception.

chrishedges.substack.com

 

[spring-peeper]

Could not find a meme thread about the Gaza, so I'll put this here





Merry Christmas y'all!!

 

[cupid_stunt]

Considering it's meant to be a comedy news programme, I thought it was a pretty thoughtful episode on the whole shit show...

(It's Last Week Tonight's programme on the Israel-Hamas War)

That is indeed 'a pretty thoughtful episode on the whole shit show', thanks for posting it, I've downloaded it to show a couple of people I've been slowly educating on the background to all this, where I am having reasonable success so far in changing their view on this situation.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

It’s funny now the “oh noes anti semitism”nutters have gone, people can almost start to see what the loons were getting so upset about.
The world is run by psychopaths. Sorry about that. It’s not like anyone was trying to tell you.
Will go put my tinfoil hat back on. Still it’s not like you could stop anything anyway. By not going along with things. Maybe we could do a petition. Or some open mic poetry evening.
I suppose we could start by giving them no votes in the Eurovision Song Contest. That will show them.

Olly Alexander (UK Eurovision act, apparently) is getting a bit of a kicking from some quarters over signing a letter calling for a ceasefire and describing Israel's actions as genocide.

UK Eurovision act Olly Alexander criticised for signing statement calling Israel an 'apartheid state' and accusing it of genocide

An open letter from Voices4London demands a ceasefire in Gaza, and accuses Israel of wanting to "ethnically cleanse the land".

news.sky.com

 

[ska invita]

Things don't go back to the status quo ante after this, though. For better or worse (may well be worse), I think a lot of possibilities are going to end up on the table, whatever the US might want.

Quite possibly so... inevitable with the passage of time... but overall my impression is neighbouring Arab countries might well be disgusted, but ultimately have nothing to gain to come out in support, and fundamentally won't. They were on the verge of normalising relations and its not like Israel was acting benevolently towards Palestinians then.

the last twenty years in the Arab world have have been brutal in a way we cannot imagine:

-500,000 dead in Iraq due to sanctions followed by a million dead as result of the invasion followed by millions of refugees
-500,000+ killed directly by the war in Syria, many more dead through the effects, millions of refugees
....I've got to go to work not got time to write it all out but Yemen, Egypt, Libya, Lebanon, Iran, Afghanistan...its a massive blood bath and living horror

Maybe its not quite a world war but the war on terror has effectively created a death-wave across arabic countries and beyond into central africa, with millions dead and tens of millions displaced......in that exhausting recent history this Israeli act of ethnic cleansing can be seen as just yet another tragedy within the mix.

I think there is no material gain to be made by exhausted and unstable neighbours against a massively out-armed US/Israel. Bottom line is I think US/Israel will get away with it.

That said the unknown big crunch is where will the Palestinian survivors go...that may yet upset the geopolitical order