Gramsci
Well-Known Member
10.30pm on a Friday? One guess...
I was being sarcastic. I try my best on this thread. But occasionally given the level of deaths in Gaza and destruction lose my rag with a poster like this.
10.30pm on a Friday? One guess...
Where is this nonsense coming from?
The "Settler State" line is veiled form of Judeophobia
Perhaps a protest against the second series of Vigil being a comedy?Wonder what this stolen Banksy was designed to highlight
Man does a runner with new Banksy less than an hour after it was put up
Banksy confirmed it was his on a social media post minutes before it was stolen.metro.co.uk
Where is this nonsense coming from?
It's different opinions, that's all, and of course you shouldn't rise to it.Ive been following this thread from the start. And tried to post up reasonable posts based on my reading.
Tim has from the start been pursuing this line. When pushed says those who support Palestinian rights are suspect of anti semitism.
Despite what has happened in Gaza has not changed their tune.
I have them on ignore but they reply to my posts. Maybe I should not.
There whole thing is that criticism of Israel is picking on it when others are just as bad. And that people who take to much of an interest in Palestine are either conscious or unconsciously anti semitic.
Maybe I should not rise to it.
I don't really understand the point tim was making tbh but I'd assumed he was asking why we're singling out Israel as uniquely different from other 'settler states'. I'm also not actually sure which other settler states he was referring to (I'm a bit out of my depth ) but I think it's a fair question why we're concentrating on Israel when there are other slaughters going on around the world.Ive taken a fair amount of stick on this thread in earlier pages and stuck with it.
I had Tim on ignore but poster will insist on commenting on my posts
And to add unless someone really winds me up I have tried to base posts on what Ive read and watched and not just spout off.
I think this is fair. I get Gramsci's frustrations, though. Tim has repeated this line more than once and it is extremely irritating to say the least to be on the receiving end of it. Settler-colonialism and analysis of it is something that has an established intellectual history and makes an awful lot of sense. Just ask indigenous peoples of North America or Australia. This was settler-colonialism but happening in the 20th century. Whatever your position on Israel, it's impossible to deny that there were people living in Palestine who were kicked off their land by the people who were to become the Israelis. That is settler-colonialism.yelling "hasbara shill" at anyone who points that out is pointless, frustrating, annoying, and IMO unworthy of your own contributions. It's equivalent to yelling "anti semite" at anyone who says that maybe Israel should be a different kind of country.
Agree with your post.
A qualification.
Jordan in 48 did deal with Zionists it would get West Bank. Palestinians were made Jordanian citizens. More to do with the Jordanian King wanting to extend his kingdom than anything else.
TBF the Jordanian army put up a good fight against Zionists in 48. Who emboldened by success in expelling Palestinians made moves on West Bank. Which under UN partition plan they did not get. This despite the deal they had made with King of Jordan. Who kept his side of bargain.
The Jordanian army was one of the most effective fighting forces against Zionism in 48. However unlike the Zionists they kept to the bargain made and did not interfere with the ethnic cleansing by Zionists outside area agreed.
It's also easy to ignore that tim has explicitly said "The point is that the Israeli regime is murderous and cruel and needs to be held to account." I don't see that as being apologizing for the Israeli state.
Yes, really devout Christians IME care quite a lot about the situation in their "Holy land", and do a lot of handwringing over it. But ultimately, and I've either hinted at this or actually said it upthread, Christians are happy for Israel to be Jewish, 1. because it feels biblical and fulfils prophecy etc, but 2. it obviously stops churches being turned into mosques. Put brutally, Christians trust Jews to look after Christian heritage in the Holy Land, more than they trust Muslims to.I was reading a book by a US journalist in which he wrote that the reason that the mass media in predominantly Christian countries pays so much attention to events in Israel-Palestine is that the names of some of the places in the area are familiar to us. The “Holy Land” is an element of our cultural background.
We can all live without his BSTim can be a contrarian. I don't think he's a bad person. Don't let him wind you up. Put him back on ignore if need be. You can live without seeing what he says.
Obviously the hasbara accusations are a bit daft but you do have to wonder about the motivations of someone whose every post is a case study in whataboutery when you're in the middle of a genocide.Tim can be a contrarian. I don't think he's a bad person. Don't let him wind you up. Put him back on ignore if need be. You can live without seeing what he says.
but I think it's a fair question why we're concentrating on Israel when there are other slaughters going on around the world.
I didn't mean this last post when I said 'jumped on', it was mainly the previous one that several people pulled him up on. Mind you his gratuitous use of 'bourgeois' didn't help, it's an accusation that liberals like him do often make.Is Tim being jumped on? One daft post? Late on a Friday? Compared to all the other studied posts Gramsci has made? That's not being jumped on. Nobody has really 'piled in'. People have suggested ignore, and others have criticized Gramsci for finally losing his rag.
It's a message board. That's a pretty lightweight pile-on.
Was still a fair question, but yes I agree that it was answered.Answered earlier yesterday in the thread. We all have our interests, most of us choose our battles. But it's not like this is a politically insignificant problem potentially for the rest of the world. Superpower interests aren't quite the same in Sudan. Fewer people here were brought up on Khartoum compared to Jerusalem.
And it is genocide.
It's a question that is asked - and as planetgeli pointed out it's been answered.
Must also admit I'm not sure which other settler states aren't being criticized or not called 'settler states' though.
Eta: Settler colonialism - Wikipedia
In which case I don't think tim's criticism is valid - I can't see urban giving a free pass to any of the other countries on that list who were now carrying on killing and expelling the original inhabitants wholesale.
Answered earlier yesterday in the thread. Superpower interests aren't quite the same in Sudan. Fewer people here were brought up on Khartoum compared to Jerusalem.
And it is genocide.
I already posted articles extensively covering the genocide that has been and still is happening in Sudan on the Sudan thread, particularly in Darfur, but unfortunately it's true that people seem a great deal less interested in what is happening there especially when compared to current events in Israel and Gaza.Local powers including Israel, Egypt and the Gulf States.
The Sudan Crisis: How Regional Actors’ Competing Interests Fuel the Conflict
The outbreak of military clashes between the Sudanese Army and the paramilitary Rapid Support Forces (RSF), which have resulted in the deaths of hundreds and the displacement of thousands of Sudanese, underscores a complex interplay of domestic, regional, and global actors who have contributed...arabcenterdc.org
As to "Superpowers" Wagner seemed to be moving in earlier in the year.
And it is genocide, land theft and colonisation in Darfur
Sudan’s cycle of violence: ‘There is a genocide going on in West Darfur’
The UN, independent researchers and charities all highlight the brutality of a conflict that has left 9,000 people dead and 5.6 million displaced in the past seven monthswww.google.com
The extract below is from the last article:
Adam Mousa Obama, from the group Darfur Victim Support, which publishes videos of RSF abuses, says the group targets men in particular, to take their land and wipe them out as an Indigenous Darfuri group. The RSF grew out of, and is heavily comprised of, the Janjaweed militias that fought on behalf of the Sudanese government during the war in Darfur, and was responsible for atrocities that qualify as crimes against humanity, according to Human Rights Watch.
“When they took Ardamata they made an announcement that all boys should come out. When they did, they started shooting them all. They want to destroy all the Indigenous people,” says Obama. “The youth have the power and ability to fight. They don’t want them to stay alive.”
Please don't do this.Local powers including Israel, Egypt and the Gulf States.
The Sudan Crisis: How Regional Actors’ Competing Interests Fuel the Conflict
The outbreak of military clashes between the Sudanese Army and the paramilitary Rapid Support Forces (RSF), which have resulted in the deaths of hundreds and the displacement of thousands of Sudanese, underscores a complex interplay of domestic, regional, and global actors who have contributed...arabcenterdc.org
As to "Superpowers" Wagner seemed to be moving in earlier in the year.
And it is genocide, land theft and colonisation in Darfur
Sudan’s cycle of violence: ‘There is a genocide going on in West Darfur’
The UN, independent researchers and charities all highlight the brutality of a conflict that has left 9,000 people dead and 5.6 million displaced in the past seven monthswww.google.com
The extract below is from the last article:
Adam Mousa Obama, from the group Darfur Victim Support, which publishes videos of RSF abuses, says the group targets men in particular, to take their land and wipe them out as an Indigenous Darfuri group. The RSF grew out of, and is heavily comprised of, the Janjaweed militias that fought on behalf of the Sudanese government during the war in Darfur, and was responsible for atrocities that qualify as crimes against humanity, according to Human Rights Watch.
“When they took Ardamata they made an announcement that all boys should come out. When they did, they started shooting them all. They want to destroy all the Indigenous people,” says Obama. “The youth have the power and ability to fight. They don’t want them to stay alive.”
Absolutely. It's bad faith whataboutery intended to give the impression Israel's critics are antisemitic.I don't think it is a fair question at all. This is the thread for news and thoughts about an ongoing genocide that is being supported by our government. We shouldn't have to justify being engaged with it.
And of course this is exactly what the Israeli government does all the time. It's tiresome and dishonest.Absolutely. It's bad faith whataboutery intended to give the impression Israel's critics are antisemitic.
The genocide developing in Gaza has been front page/headline news in the UK for months, with live update pages on the most viewed news websites bringing the latest developments to your phone every few minutes. Social media is full of horrific images and partial takes. It's built on an issue that has been a regular news story for as long as I've been alive, from PLO attacks in the 70s to the IDF indiscriminately bombing Gaza every few years over the last couple of decades. There's widely divided positions, with the entirely different narratives of Israel and Palestine having little in common, giving plenty to debate. The UK government solidly supports Israel in its attacks on Palestine, the US even more so.I already posted articles extensively covering the genocide that has been and still is happening in Sudan on the Sudan thread, particularly in Darfur, but unfortunately it's true that people seem a great deal less interested in what is happening there especially when compared to current events in Israel and Gaza.
Settler-colonialism and analysis of it is something that has an established intellectual history and makes an awful lot of sense. Just ask indigenous peoples of North America or Australia. This was settler-colonialism but happening in the 20th century. Whatever your position on Israel, it's impossible to deny that there were people living in Palestine who were kicked off their land by the people who were to become the Israelis. That is settler-colonialism.
(...) Settler colonial theory often ends up promoting an extremely uncritical and romanticised approach to often fraught politics of Indigenous nationalist movements, one notable example being a recent Tempest article on Palestinian resistance. This approach reflects the essentially classless analysis of colonial societies promoted by settler colonial theory, a weakness which undermines its capacity to unpack the complex interactions between imperialism and capitalism, colonialism and class, and racism and resistance in today’s world. Settler colonial theory’s dismissive attitude towards the non-Indigenous working classes and its uncritical championing of Indigenous nationalist movements also echoes the problems of third worldism that influenced much of the radical left in the second half of the 20th century.