Gramsci
Well-Known Member
10.30pm on a Friday? One guess...
I was being sarcastic. I try my best on this thread. But occasionally given the level of deaths in Gaza and destruction lose my rag with a poster like this.
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
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I was being sarcastic. I try my best on this thread. But occasionally given the level of deaths in Gaza and destruction lose my rag with a poster like this.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Things like this:
Post in thread 'Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion' Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
post 8989
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Ive taken a fair amount of stick on this thread in earlier pages and stuck with it.
I had Tim on ignore but poster will insist on commenting on my posts
And to add unless someone really winds me up I have tried to base posts on what Ive read and watched and not just spout off.
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Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Perhaps a protest against the second series of Vigil being a comedy?Wonder what this stolen Banksy was designed to highlight
Man does a runner with new Banksy less than an hour after it was put up
Banksy confirmed it was his on a social media post minutes before it was stolen.metro.co.uk
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
This kind of post.
Post in thread 'Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion' Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
8948
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
It's different opinions, that's all, and of course you shouldn't rise to it.
Other countries are as bad, and some people do question why Israel gets so much attention. For anyone with a personal connection with 'the Levant' to put it diplomatically, its obvious why they'd care. Ditto people who refer to the whole place as 'the Holy Land' - that's still common parlance among a certain kind of Christian. Nobody I know who is Israeli or Jewish or both, is entirely uncritical of Israel. But what it looks like is that quite a lot of people who have no connection - personal or religious - with Israel, Palestine or 'the Holy Land' get very loud on this issue over and above others such as Xinjiang or Burma or Yemen or Sudan or...
And the thing is, anti-semitism does feed this extra loudness over Israel/Palestine, not you but it does. You know it does, we all know it does. We've seen it glancingly on this very thread, which I've also followed since the OP.
So I think there are a lot of views we aren't hearing because of some of the more vitriolic shit that even a pretty thoughtful post can attract. Nobody wants Mark fucking Regev in here but ffs Israel isn't going anywhere, and yelling "hasbara shill" at anyone who points that out is pointless, frustrating, annoying, and IMO unworthy of your own contributions. It's equivalent to yelling "anti semite" at anyone who says that maybe Israel should be a different kind of country.
Anyway, I'm trying to comment less so I'll leave it there.
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two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
I don't really understand the point tim was making tbh but I'd assumed he was asking why we're singling out Israel as uniquely different from other 'settler states'. I'm also not actually sure which other settler states he was referring to (I'm a bit out of my depth
) but I think it's a fair question why we're concentrating on Israel when there are other slaughters going on around the world.It's also easy to ignore that tim has explicitly said "The point is that the Israeli regime is murderous and cruel and needs to be held to account." I don't see that as being apologizing for the Israeli state.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think this is fair. I get Gramsci's frustrations, though. Tim has repeated this line more than once and it is extremely irritating to say the least to be on the receiving end of it. Settler-colonialism and analysis of it is something that has an established intellectual history and makes an awful lot of sense. Just ask indigenous peoples of North America or Australia. This was settler-colonialism but happening in the 20th century. Whatever your position on Israel, it's impossible to deny that there were people living in Palestine who were kicked off their land by the people who were to become the Israelis. That is settler-colonialism.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
The Jordanian army in 1948 aka "The Arab Legion" was a British led military force under the command of John Glubb. The British had lost control of half of Palestine and the fight for the West Bank was as much about maintaining a British presence in the territory. The Jordanian Royal Family had formerly been the rulers of Hejaz which is currently part of the Saudi State and had no long-standing links with or rots in the area having been imposed by the British as their clients after WW1
Any assessment of the latter part of Hussein's reign in Jordan needs isn't really complete without considering his attacks upon the Palestinian forces during "Black September". He was hated in the Arab World but loved by the British state and media.
PTK
Paul Kegan
I was reading a book by a US journalist in which he wrote that the reason that the mass media in predominantly Christian countries pays so much attention to events in Israel-Palestine is that the names of some of the places in the area are familiar to us. The “Holy Land” is an element of our cultural background. The area does not seem as obscure to most of us as, for example, East Timor (which was under occupation by the Republic of Indonesia for 25 years, and a large proportion of the population of which was killed).
The mass media give much coverage to the conflict, and so people in Britain are more interested in it than in conflicts that have less coverage. Furthermore, the government of the UK was responsible for the outcome in 1948, and today provides support to the State of Israel, thus it is an issue in British politics.
It is usually the case that human rights abuses in other countries do not receive widespread coverage in the British mass media unless the UK is considering engaging in military intervention.
(The mass murder of Kurdish civilians in Iraq using poison gas received little coverage at the time, when the UK was tilting in favour of Saddam’s regime. It was only 14 or 15 years later, when the UK government was planning to invade Iraq, that the average Sun reader would solemnly tell you that Saddam has “killed his own people”).
The mass media give much coverage to the conflict, and so people in Britain are more interested in it than in conflicts that have less coverage. Furthermore, the government of the UK was responsible for the outcome in 1948, and today provides support to the State of Israel, thus it is an issue in British politics.
It is usually the case that human rights abuses in other countries do not receive widespread coverage in the British mass media unless the UK is considering engaging in military intervention.
(The mass murder of Kurdish civilians in Iraq using poison gas received little coverage at the time, when the UK was tilting in favour of Saddam’s regime. It was only 14 or 15 years later, when the UK government was planning to invade Iraq, that the average Sun reader would solemnly tell you that Saddam has “killed his own people”).
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
That is what winds me up. Says one thing then undercuts it by saying something else.
Any specific question and comes back with well they are all at it so why go on at Israel.
Only said what they really thought pages back when pushed. Guard came down momentarily.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Tim can be a contrarian. I don't think he's a bad person. Don't let him wind you up. Put him back on ignore if need be. You can live without seeing what he says.
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
Yes, really devout Christians IME care quite a lot about the situation in their "Holy land", and do a lot of handwringing over it. But ultimately, and I've either hinted at this or actually said it upthread, Christians are happy for Israel to be Jewish, 1. because it feels biblical and fulfils prophecy etc, but 2. it obviously stops churches being turned into mosques. Put brutally, Christians trust Jews to look after Christian heritage in the Holy Land, more than they trust Muslims to.
So that essentially concludes the Christian case for zionism, and in my experience Christians are usually soft zionists who really just want Israel to be nicer. I think that idea underpins most broader attitudes within the entirety of 'christendom'. It's not an analysis, it's feels - and so in the long term, maybe Bibi and his posse really are shitting the Christian bed with the sheer brutality of all this.
Anyway it's another angle and one unlikely to get much of an airing here.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
We can all live without his BS
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Obviously the hasbara accusations are a bit daft but you do have to wonder about the motivations of someone whose every post is a case study in whataboutery when you're in the middle of a genocide.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Is Tim being jumped on? One daft post? Late on a Friday? Compared to all the other studied posts Gramsci has made? That's not being jumped on. Nobody has really 'piled in'. People have suggested ignore, and others have criticized Gramsci for finally losing his rag.
It's a message board. That's a pretty lightweight pile-on.
Answered earlier yesterday in the thread. We all have our interests, most of us choose our battles. But it's not like this is a politically insignificant problem potentially for the rest of the world. Superpower interests aren't quite the same in Sudan. Fewer people here were brought up on Khartoum compared to Jerusalem.
And it is genocide.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
I didn't mean this last post when I said 'jumped on', it was mainly the previous one that several people pulled him up on. Mind you his gratuitous use of 'bourgeois' didn't help, it's an accusation that liberals like him do often make.
Was still a fair question, but yes I agree that it was answered.
I'm just thinking out loud as to why some posters might not want to add to the thread.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I don't think it is a fair question at all. This is the thread for news and thoughts about an ongoing genocide that is being supported by our government. We shouldn't have to justify being engaged with it.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
It's a question that is asked - and as planetgeli pointed out it's been answered.
Must also admit I'm not sure which other settler states aren't being criticized or not called 'settler states' though.
Eta: Settler colonialism - Wikipedia
In which case I don't think tim's criticism is valid - I can't see urban giving a free pass to any of the other countries on that list who were now carrying on killing and expelling the original inhabitants wholesale.
Must also admit I'm not sure which other settler states aren't being criticized or not called 'settler states' though.
Eta: Settler colonialism - Wikipedia
In which case I don't think tim's criticism is valid - I can't see urban giving a free pass to any of the other countries on that list who were now carrying on killing and expelling the original inhabitants wholesale.
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mojo pixy
שיר חדש
I can't see the argument over those places (whichever they may be) getting quite so heated / bitter as the argument over this place, though. That to me is a teensy bit problematic. But it's also hardly news. And it may simply be reflective of the "Holy Land" cultural background that anyone raised in a christian place will have been marinated in (regardless of their actual personal, grown-up views on christianity)
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Local powers including Israel, Egypt and the Gulf States.
The Sudan Crisis: How Regional Actors’ Competing Interests Fuel the Conflict
The outbreak of military clashes between the Sudanese Army and the paramilitary Rapid Support Forces (RSF), which have resulted in the deaths of hundreds and the displacement of thousands of Sudanese, underscores a complex interplay of domestic, regional, and global actors who have contributed...
arabcenterdc.org
As to "Superpowers" Wagner seemed to be moving in earlier in the year.
And it is genocide, land theft and colonisation in Darfur
Sudan’s cycle of violence: ‘There is a genocide going on in West Darfur’
The UN, independent researchers and charities all highlight the brutality of a conflict that has left 9,000 people dead and 5.6 million displaced in the past seven months
The extract below is from the last article:
Adam Mousa Obama, from the group Darfur Victim Support, which publishes videos of RSF abuses, says the group targets men in particular, to take their land and wipe them out as an Indigenous Darfuri group. The RSF grew out of, and is heavily comprised of, the Janjaweed militias that fought on behalf of the Sudanese government during the war in Darfur, and was responsible for atrocities that qualify as crimes against humanity, according to Human Rights Watch.
“When they took Ardamata they made an announcement that all boys should come out. When they did, they started shooting them all. They want to destroy all the Indigenous people,” says Obama. “The youth have the power and ability to fight. They don’t want them to stay alive.”
teqniq
DisMembered
I already posted articles extensively covering the genocide that has been and still is happening in Sudan on the Sudan thread, particularly in Darfur, but unfortunately it's true that people seem a great deal less interested in what is happening there especially when compared to current events in Israel and Gaza.Local powers including Israel, Egypt and the Gulf States.
The Sudan Crisis: How Regional Actors’ Competing Interests Fuel the Conflict
The outbreak of military clashes between the Sudanese Army and the paramilitary Rapid Support Forces (RSF), which have resulted in the deaths of hundreds and the displacement of thousands of Sudanese, underscores a complex interplay of domestic, regional, and global actors who have contributed...
As to "Superpowers" Wagner seemed to be moving in earlier in the year.
And it is genocide, land theft and colonisation in Darfur
Sudan’s cycle of violence: ‘There is a genocide going on in West Darfur’
The UN, independent researchers and charities all highlight the brutality of a conflict that has left 9,000 people dead and 5.6 million displaced in the past seven monthswww.google.com
The extract below is from the last article:
Adam Mousa Obama, from the group Darfur Victim Support, which publishes videos of RSF abuses, says the group targets men in particular, to take their land and wipe them out as an Indigenous Darfuri group. The RSF grew out of, and is heavily comprised of, the Janjaweed militias that fought on behalf of the Sudanese government during the war in Darfur, and was responsible for atrocities that qualify as crimes against humanity, according to Human Rights Watch.
“When they took Ardamata they made an announcement that all boys should come out. When they did, they started shooting them all. They want to destroy all the Indigenous people,” says Obama. “The youth have the power and ability to fight. They don’t want them to stay alive.”
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Please don't do this.Local powers including Israel, Egypt and the Gulf States.
The Sudan Crisis: How Regional Actors’ Competing Interests Fuel the Conflict
The outbreak of military clashes between the Sudanese Army and the paramilitary Rapid Support Forces (RSF), which have resulted in the deaths of hundreds and the displacement of thousands of Sudanese, underscores a complex interplay of domestic, regional, and global actors who have contributed...
As to "Superpowers" Wagner seemed to be moving in earlier in the year.
And it is genocide, land theft and colonisation in Darfur
Sudan’s cycle of violence: ‘There is a genocide going on in West Darfur’
The UN, independent researchers and charities all highlight the brutality of a conflict that has left 9,000 people dead and 5.6 million displaced in the past seven months
The extract below is from the last article:
Adam Mousa Obama, from the group Darfur Victim Support, which publishes videos of RSF abuses, says the group targets men in particular, to take their land and wipe them out as an Indigenous Darfuri group. The RSF grew out of, and is heavily comprised of, the Janjaweed militias that fought on behalf of the Sudanese government during the war in Darfur, and was responsible for atrocities that qualify as crimes against humanity, according to Human Rights Watch.
“When they took Ardamata they made an announcement that all boys should come out. When they did, they started shooting them all. They want to destroy all the Indigenous people,” says Obama. “The youth have the power and ability to fight. They don’t want them to stay alive.”
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Absolutely. It's bad faith whataboutery intended to give the impression Israel's critics are antisemitic.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And of course this is exactly what the Israeli government does all the time. It's tiresome and dishonest.
Spandex
A crazy bulbous punchbag of sound
The genocide developing in Gaza has been front page/headline news in the UK for months, with live update pages on the most viewed news websites bringing the latest developments to your phone every few minutes. Social media is full of horrific images and partial takes. It's built on an issue that has been a regular news story for as long as I've been alive, from PLO attacks in the 70s to the IDF indiscriminately bombing Gaza every few years over the last couple of decades. There's widely divided positions, with the entirely different narratives of Israel and Palestine having little in common, giving plenty to debate. The UK government solidly supports Israel in its attacks on Palestine, the US even more so.
The unfolding genocide in Sudan has barely been reported in the UK - you have to go back a month to find a report in the Guardian. Everyone agrees its a bad thing, but you have to go hunting to find any information about the background. The UK government barely seems to have a position on Sudan - the FCO haven't updated their Sudan webpage since October.
It's hardly surprising that one prompts lengthy discussions and the other tumbleweed.
Lurdan
old wave
'Settler-colonialism' is one explanatory framework. It's hardly uncontested. Here for example is a recent article on the RS21 website:
Debate – the limitations of settler colonial theory.
Now I don't agree with any part of RS21's 'wet trotskyism', and I really don't like the manner in which this article expresses things, but it does draw attention to some of the problems with 'settler-colonial' theory as an explanatory framework.
By contrast here's an article from within a different explanatory framework.
Gaza: An Extreme Militarization of the Class War – The Brooklyn Rail
It's a translation of a text that was first published in French a couple of months ago. I thought it was interesting, although I'm not convinced by it's conclusions, and I'm not in love with it's 'manner of speaking' either. Despite that I find this sort of class based framework a little more compelling than 'settler colonialism'.
At the end of the day however that's all they are - attempts at explanatory frameworks.
I would add that I think it's absurd to suggest that 'settler colonialism', when applied to Israel, is invariably an expression of judeophobia. But I also think it's absurd to ignore the fact that elements of the left are indeed antisemitic, and other parts appear to remain blind to that fact. That's the unfortunate legacy of decades of shitty forms of anti-imperialism.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There are situations in which a class based analysis breaks down. Palestine/Israel is one of those situations, where one whole group of people is a particular kind of underclass, a prisoner class.
This is similar to a situation of slavery. Or apartheid SA. To talk about different classes of people in other ways, you first need to agree that they are all people in a fungible sense.
This is similar to a situation of slavery. Or apartheid SA. To talk about different classes of people in other ways, you first need to agree that they are all people in a fungible sense.
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