Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[spring-peeper]

Christmas was always my favourite time. When I was younger no-one fought during on Christmas Day. Universe Day Off!!!

Back in the first world war, the German soldiers lit their lanterns and displayed them on the edge of their trenches, carol singing broke out. Soon enough the British and French troops joined in. Christmas greetings and well wishes were exchanged, and offers of a temporary ceasefire were communicated between the trenches.

and...



It is not like that any more.

Merry Christmas



At least 70 people have been killed in an Israeli air attack in central Gaza’s al-Maghazi refugee camp, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry.

“What is happening at the al-Maghazi camp is a massacre that is being committed on a crowded residential square,” he said.

Dozens more are reported to be injured and several houses have been destroyed in the attack as families dig through the rubble in an attempt to find survivors.

“We were all targeted,” said Ahmad Turokmani, who lost several family members including his daughter and grandson. “There is no safe place in Gaza anyway.”

‘Massacre’ as Israel steps up Gaza bombardment for Christmas

The attacks in central Gaza are some of the deadliest of the nearly three-month-long war.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[CH1]

Was watching Listening Post on Al Jazeera this morning.
After extensive analysis of the killings of journalists in Gaza it concluded with about 10 minutes on Christian Zionism in the American evangelical churches/mega churches and TV ministries. A lot of clips from TBN (USA).
I naturally flipped to Freeview 66 - TBN UK - wondering if I would catch them red-handed.

Unfortunately the programme was a one woman show discoursing on "discipleship" with reference to the Epistle to the Hebrews in an Angela Rayner voice.
Not a Christmas tree or decoration in sight. I guess it's safe to assume on a 5 minute sample that this particular programme was made by Fundamentalists who take the Bible literally and possibly don't celebrate Christmas - in common with JW, 7th Day Adventists and Bretheren churches.

I will flick over from time to time - I think it's possible TBN UK may be toned down to conform to OFCOM guidelines. (unlike GB News)
They do relay some American content - so might be scope for an OFCOM complaint there!

BTW talking of Zionists that Jake Wallis Simmons was on Sky News reviewing the papers on his own the night before last. I turned it off - some of his Tweets recently have been shocking.

 

[ska invita]

I do wonder what Hamas leadership expected to happen and how they are feeling about the current situation

 

[Duncan2]

Whether or not they have done the Zionist cause a great favour we shall eventually learn.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Whether or not they have done the Zionist cause a great favour we shall eventually learn.

In general genocide makes for bad optics…

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I do wonder what Hamas leadership expected to happen and how they are feeling about the current situation

Speculating, they were expecting retaliation of course, but probably not this much. They wanted to place the Palestinian cause front of the world stage. That they have achieved.

Again speculating somewhat, their primary goal on 7 October wasn't to kill. It was to take hostages. It's becoming clear that many of the Israelis who died in the chaos of that day were hostages killed by their own side blowing up cars hot footing it back to Gaza.

And guessing, 7 Oct didn't turn out exactly as they had planned - both more hamas fighters and more Israelis died that day than they had intended. Fewer hostages were taken than hoped. Fewer dead and more hostages would have given them greater leverage over what happened next.

 

[marshall]

I do wonder what Hamas leadership expected to happen and how they are feeling about the current situation

That’s it all going to plan?

The Israeli reaction was entirely predictable, so they must have factored in a response like this to any incursion made by their fighters.

 

[PTK]

Does it matter what Hamas thought and thinks?
We must keep up the pressure for an immediate ceasefire.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That’s it all going to plan?

The Israeli reaction was entirely predictable, so they must have factored in a response like this to any incursion made by their fighters.

The levelling of the Gaza strip was the plan? I don't believe that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Does it matter what Hamas thought and thinks?
We must keep up the pressure for an immediate ceasefire.

In terms of Israeli propaganda, it does matter somewhat. If you look on places like unherd, where pro-Israeli arguments are voiced, hamas is portrayed as a group of Islamist extremists intent on exterminating the Jews.

They are Islamists of course. But that reductionist line is used to justify extreme measures in the 'effort to eliminate the threat'.

Eg here:

Why Israel can't accept a ceasefire

Hamas has dictated the parameters of victory

unherd.com

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As an aside to that, I'm glad we're not hearing unherd style arguments on here. We can do without such parallel universe bullshit.

 

[PTK]

Good points.

 

[GarveyLives]

A genocide is happening in Gaza but the discussion is yet again about anti-Semitism.ffs

Wow:

Israeli Bombing of Gaza Ranks Among 'Most Devastating' in History

 

[Dogsauce]

Again speculating somewhat, their primary goal on 7 October wasn't to kill. It was to take hostages. It's becoming clear that many of the Israelis who died in the chaos of that day were hostages killed by their own side blowing up cars hot footing it back to Gaza.

That’s bordering on atrocity denial, there were clear and undeniable murders of civilians captured on their own footage and it was fucking horrible shit. Whether this was planned or spontaneous (and I’ve heard suggestions that some involved were not Hamas but others breaking out at the same time) may be up for debate, that it happened cannot be denied. Saying that ‘many’ were killed whilst being captured sounds like an attempt to minimise this.

 

[Serge Forward]

That’s bordering on atrocity denial, there were clear and undeniable murders of civilians captured on their own footage and it was fucking horrible shit. Whether this was planned or spontaneous (and I’ve heard suggestions that some involved were not Hamas but others breaking out at the same time) may be up for debate, that it happened cannot be denied. Saying that ‘many’ were killed whilst being captured sounds like an attempt to minimise this.

Not "bordering on" but straight out atrocity denial.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That’s bordering on atrocity denial, there were clear and undeniable murders of civilians captured on their own footage and it was fucking horrible shit. Whether this was planned or spontaneous (and I’ve heard suggestions that some involved were not Hamas but others breaking out at the same time) may be up for debate, that it happened cannot be denied. Saying that ‘many’ were killed whilst being captured sounds like an attempt to minimise this.

The opposite problem is evident in much commentary on this. The reduction of the attack to mindless blood thirst when it clearly had planning and objectives.

It is speculation on my part to suggest that the primary objective was to capture hostages, but that speculation is not based on nothing.

I'm not seeking to excuse the killing, but that post was a response to someone else's speculation about what Hamas thinks about what has happened since. So what? It's ok to speculate that they want maximum death and destruction to everyone, but not anything else?

 

[Gramsci]

In terms of Israeli propaganda, it does matter somewhat. If you look on places like unherd, where pro-Israeli arguments are voiced, hamas is portrayed as a group of Islamist extremists intent on exterminating the Jews.

They are Islamists of course. But that reductionist line is used to justify extreme measures in the 'effort to eliminate the threat'.

Eg here:

Why Israel can't accept a ceasefire

Hamas has dictated the parameters of victory

unherd.com

Read the article.

It's an article supporting the killing of civilians in large numbers and destruction of infrastructure in order to completely destroy Hamas and it's tunnels.

Tantamount to supporting large scale organised murder of civilians. Expulsion from homes. This isn't taking place in one off attack but long term attack taking months. Nor is it a mistake or actions of soldiers getting carried away. This is deliberate and this article is supporting that.

Article puts forward that Israel has always had to go it alone in defiance of UN - The international community. Since 1948. Otherwise it would not exist.

The history is highly questionable. And he doesn't mention the Nakba. Nor that this started before Mandate ended.

I'd also say it's up to Palestinians who they want to represent them not to be told or assumed who they want.

 

[RhymnRzn]

The opposite problem is evident in much commentary on this. The reduction of the attack to mindless blood thirst when it clearly had planning and objectives.

It is speculation on my part to suggest that the primary objective was to capture hostages, but that speculation is not based on nothing.

I'm not seeking to excuse the killing, but that post was a response to someone else's speculation about what Hamas thinks about what has happened since. So what? It's ok to speculate that they want maximum death and destruction to everyone, but not anything else?

well worded. in similar thought, what miserable hypocrite does not think they would be driven to such activity under concentration camp oppression?

 

[PursuedByBears]

That’s bordering on atrocity denial, there were clear and undeniable murders of civilians captured on their own footage and it was fucking horrible shit. Whether this was planned or spontaneous (and I’ve heard suggestions that some involved were not Hamas but others breaking out at the same time) may be up for debate, that it happened cannot be denied. Saying that ‘many’ were killed whilst being captured sounds like an attempt to minimise this.

Exactly. I can't believe some of the parallel world "omg what have Hamas done to this deserve this" bollocks on this thread. Rape, sadistic torture, murder FFS. The Israeli response has been horrendous but don't forget the pogrom that Hamas initiated in October. Have a word with yourselves FFS.

 

[RhymnRzn]

Exactly. I can't believe some of the parallel world "omg what have Hamas done to this deserve this" bollocks on this thread. Rape, sadistic torture, murder FFS. The Israeli response has been horrendous but don't forget the pogrom that Hamas initiated in October. Have a word with yourselves FFS.

thats what so called israel is doing, raping and torturing using all wrath from on high as if they are not men but demented angels of death. do unto others as you would like done unto thyself.

but lets face it, it a fascistic jack move to take over the holy land, planting flags, waging "holy" war. who ever will go as tourists here after will be touching blood with every speck of dust

 

[two sheds]

Exactly. I can't believe some of the parallel world "omg what have Hamas done to this deserve this"

Don't think I've seen any of that. I've seen a lot of "omg what have the Palestinians done to deserve this".

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Don't think I've seen any of that. I've seen a lot of "omg what have the Palestinians done to deserve this".

Exactly: the two are not identical

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Exactly. I can't believe some of the parallel world "omg what have Hamas done to this deserve this" bollocks on this thread. Rape, sadistic torture, murder FFS. The Israeli response has been horrendous but don't forget the pogrom that Hamas initiated in October. Have a word with yourselves FFS.

Wow. Palestinians = Hamas

Just wow.

Use of the word pogrom for the attack also is not neutral, as if Jews were being oppressed by the local Arab population. The power relations are of course the reverse.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I can't believe some of the parallel world "omg what have Hamas done to this deserve this" bollocks on this thread.

I can't believe you're reading the same thread as me and you've seen anything of the sort.

 

[tim]

Wow. Palestinians = Hamas

Just wow.

Use of the word pogrom for the attack also is not neutral, as if Jews were being oppressed by the local Arab population. The power relations are of course the reverse.

Pogrom is an appropriate word for both the attack by Hamas on October 7 and the ongoing attack by the Israeli government upon Gaza. In both the aim is to kill and drive out a civilian population. Hamas are just less well equipped killers.

 

[Serge Forward]

thats what so called israel is doing, raping and torturing using all wrath from on high as if they are not men but demented angels of death. do unto others as you would like done unto thyself.

but lets face it, it a fascistic jack move to take over the holy land, planting flags, waging "holy" war. who ever will go as tourists here after will be touching blood with every speck of dust

The Israeli regime regime is basically a bunch of racist, genocidal, quasi-fascist shitstains that needs dismantling. But the playing down of earlier Hamas atrocities does no one any favours.

 

[RhymnRzn]

The Israeli regime regime is basically a bunch of racist, genocidal, quasi-fascist shitstains that needs dismantling. But the playing down of earlier Hamas atrocities does no one any favours.

eh, the levels of inhumanity are always surprising, call me a fool (but not a hypcrite - i think all men should disarm and cease from violent aggression and assume a harmless faith), but im guessing if the tables were turned, so called hamas, or other bravehearts, avengers, and groups after the law of their own mind, would be more humane than this bunch with no natural affections, thinking to establish their own visions for the future.

 

[tim]

eh, the levels of inhumanity are always surprising, call me a fool (but not a hypcrite - i think all men should disarm and cease from violent aggression and assume a harmless faith), but im guessing if the tables were turned, so called hamas, or other bravehearts, avengers, and groups after the law of their own mind, would be more humane than this bunch with no natural affections, thinking to establish their own visions for the future.

Why "so called Hamas"? We're talking about an organisation that seemed to have few qualms about claiming responsibility for the crimes of October 7. As to humane behaviour, there was nothing humane about Hamas's behaviour on that day.

 

[hitmouse]

'Settler-colonialism' is one explanatory framework. It's hardly uncontested. Here for example is a recent article on the RS21 website:
Debate – the limitations of settler colonial theory.


Now I don't agree with any part of RS21's 'wet trotskyism', and I really don't like the manner in which this article expresses things, but it does draw attention to some of the problems with 'settler-colonial' theory as an explanatory framework.

By contrast here's an article from within a different explanatory framework.
Gaza: An Extreme Militarization of the Class War – The Brooklyn Rail
It's a translation of a text that was first published in French a couple of months ago. I thought it was interesting, although I'm not convinced by it's conclusions, and I'm not in love with it's 'manner of speaking' either. Despite that I find this sort of class based framework a little more compelling than 'settler colonialism'.

At the end of the day however that's all they are - attempts at explanatory frameworks.

I would add that I think it's absurd to suggest that 'settler colonialism', when applied to Israel, is invariably an expression of judeophobia. But I also think it's absurd to ignore the fact that elements of the left are indeed antisemitic, and other parts appear to remain blind to that fact. That's the unfortunate legacy of decades of shitty forms of anti-imperialism.

That Brooklyn Rail article is pretty long, so I've not read the full thing yet, but it's definitely interesting, thanks for sharing. Had been meaning to get around to giving that RS21 article a proper read as well.

 

[RhymnRzn]

Why "so called Hamas"? We're talking about an organisation that seemed to have few qualms about claiming responsibility for the crimes of October 7. As to humane behaviour, there was nothing humane about Hamas's behaviour on that day.

of course there wasnt. in similar fashion they were not bowing down to their oppressors, in a place that was historical palestinian... i say so called because what is worthy or who is worthy to be named that boasts themselves of a power better left to their god and not men