krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Why "holy" war but not "holy" land?
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I think you might want to remind yourself of the history of Palestine over the past century so you don't find yourself giving undue status to specific events like October 7: you don't appear to be seeing them in their correct context, which is of course very much how the zionists would like you to perceive them.
RhymnRzn
anti-doter
sorry, the first is what they call it, the second is what i call it
johnwesley
Member
Alexei brilliant as ever as he was 40 years ago cuts through the Christmas lying bullshit.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
There's no such thing as holy.
PursuedByBears
Go stick your head in a pig
Torture rape and murder not being given it's correct context. Undue status. Right.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
If you look at your next sentence you say the zionist response has been horrendous but this was all started by the hamas pogrom of Oct 7. But it clearly wasn't. Firstly that's an utterly arbitrary date because the massacres of 7 October didn't really come out of the blue. And we know that it didn't come out of the blue because the zionists had a) ample warning that something was coming, and b) a long long history with gaza. For sure as I have said repeatedly since 7.10 the massacres were horrendous. Don't be dishonest and suggest I think otherwise. But also please don't be dishonest and make out how the current situation is really of Palestinian creation when it's really fucking clear it wasn't. Blaming genocide on the victims is a very poor look.
teqniq
DisMembered
Yet more war crimes: 
www.aljazeera.com
‘Fired point-blank’: Survivors of Israel’s school massacre in Gaza
At least seven bodies of displaced Palestinians ‘shot point-blank’ were recovered at the Shadia Abu Ghazala School.
ska invita
back on the other side
Its an interesting question. it might have been factored in..it certainly should have been...in which case wtf was the mid/long term thinking. Is there another step in their plan? And if not....fuck me.
There are only two options, either they expected it or they didn't, both versions horrendous in different ways.
Al-Qaeda triggering the destabilisation of the entire arab world with 9/11 could be argued from their point has been a success...certainly seems to have grown Islamic fundamentalism and polarised the situation. I wonder if they expected the response they created either. Hard to know, but in both cases, Hamas and AlQ, I doubt they expected the carnage it would unleash.
There's every reason to imagine this is the effective end of Hamas, as well as the end of Palestine.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
What in your view did the Hamas leadership expect, when they signed off on the plan for October 7th (however 'signing off' actually works within Hamas)? If not a brutal Israeli reaction, then what did they expect?
I'm asking because your I don't believe that seems quite terse and decisive; myself I think there's room for the possibility that it was expected. After all, Israeli brutality -> international sympathy for Palestine -> long game -> ??
It's not as if Hamas is actually accountable to its people after all. What will the people actually do to them, when Israel is the bigger enemy anyway?
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
WTF were they thinking was all I could think seeing the Oct 7th atrocity.
Israel response was always going to terrible guess the Gaza strip is gone.
You have to survive to play the long game and that looks doubtful.
Israel response was always going to terrible guess the Gaza strip is gone.
You have to survive to play the long game and that looks doubtful.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
maybe the plan was to attack army bases and kibbutzim and kill a load of israelis, so that israel goes 'ohmygosh we'd better change our ways' and then they all lived happily ever after?
because I don't believe that. the minds that decided to do this must have had some next step in mind.
because I don't believe that. the minds that decided to do this must have had some next step in mind.
There's always the possibility that it was borne out of desperation and frustration. Considering the status quo to be unbearable and seeing no discernible future might well put any idea of a concrete plan out of the equation.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
More likely scenario i.m.o.: -
Hamas practised all this for yonks. The intention was to grab some hostages. They were prepared for a high level of losses on their own side, because of martyrdom etc. The Israelis had been observing their activities for a long time too, and had got used to it. They were unprepared for a full-on frontal attack. For whatever reason. Hamas were themselves surprised by their initial successes, hadn't expected it. Didn't know what to do, overreacted, the killing got our of hand. Israel reacted badly at first, too late. Their government felt it had to go over the top in their thirst for revenge and got unwarranted support for their 'right to defend themselves' from western governments. Things then developed beyond anyone's intentions.
Hamas practised all this for yonks. The intention was to grab some hostages. They were prepared for a high level of losses on their own side, because of martyrdom etc. The Israelis had been observing their activities for a long time too, and had got used to it. They were unprepared for a full-on frontal attack. For whatever reason. Hamas were themselves surprised by their initial successes, hadn't expected it. Didn't know what to do, overreacted, the killing got our of hand. Israel reacted badly at first, too late. Their government felt it had to go over the top in their thirst for revenge and got unwarranted support for their 'right to defend themselves' from western governments. Things then developed beyond anyone's intentions.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Read the RS21 article and also went back to read the two articles on settler colonialism by Sai Englert.
The underlying critique is that settler colonial framework imposes an analysis on something that is very complex. In simple terms one ends up supporting the good Indigenous versus the bad settlers. This leaves out the way the development of these areas throws up different classes in either the settler community or the indigenous community.
In the case of Australia the critique shows how "settler" support for indigenous people can be sidelined in settler colonial framework. Which seems to me unfortunate as it rules out solidarity across divides.
TBF to Sai Englert he recognizes this weakness in settler colonial framework.
As an aside Ive started over Xmas Bernard Regan book on the Balfour Declaration which puts in the conxtext of inter Imperial rivalry in Middle East in WW1 and after. Looks like the book is setting framework for Palestine within a broader framework of Imperialism and Capitalism. Need to protect Suez Canal/ route to India/ need for oil was increasing. Even then support for Zionism was not a given with Imperialist government circles. Indirect control rather than direct colonial control was more typical of later Imperialism. Making sure that any self government was subordinate to needs of Imperial Britain. Supporting Zionism was an option but not inevitable.
So I suppose another way to approach the conflict is looking at the overall region rather than focus on Palestine itself. Within a broader framework of capitalism and imperialism.
Settler colonialism, Zionism and Palestinian liberation
rs21 - revolutionary socialism in the 21st century
www.rs21.org.uk
I read both parts of Sai Englert articles on Settler Colonialism. Settler Colonialism as a framework is more convincing in relation to Israel. Looking at Zionism history in light of work of Ilan Pappe for example driving out of indigenous people of Palestine was and still is a core objective. Pappe work looks at the mechanics of this in his book on the Nakba. I think for Israeli Jews like Pappe the settler colonial framework was a riposte to what they were taught. That Zionism was a national liberation war against the British.
In the second part of Sai does argue that Palestine society have class divisions.
Sai does write off Israel working class as far as any change goes. The way the Israel state was set up and works means that Israeli working class materially benefit from the dispossession of Palestinians. He uses the example of settlement building. Protests in Israel about cost of housing can be quietened down by more settlement building on Palestinian land.
Historically Labour Zionism - which was the ruling form post 48 for several decades- bound the workers to the State.
So for Sai appealing the the Israeli working class is a non starter.
To counter this , in short, his view is Palestine has to be seen in a broader struggle across the Middle East. Palestine cannot be freed unless rest of the middle east regimes go as well.
What I found lacking in second part is any picture of what a post Zionist Israel/ Palestine would look like. What would happen to the Israeli working class under this toppling across the Middle East of reactionary regimes by popular protest. At what point would they suddenly see the light and join in?
As well as struggling against this colonial settler society I would have thought some kind of vision of a future is needed. Some kind of at least provisional ideas about how to work with at least sections of Israeli society.
Sai argues that any concessions to appealing to Israeli working class/ society is giving succour to Zionism. This to me appears to harsh on a practical level. But still I may be wrong.
Sai says at this time its not in material interest of Israelis to oppose the Zionist project. That a few Israelis do but they are and always have been a tiny minority.
Last edited:
8ball
Decolonise colons!
To some degree, in the case of those directly involved, possibly.
Not so much in the case of those involved with the funding and planning, though.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
And while it may have been more successful than anticipated I don't think that has much impact on Israel's response. If only a quarter of the number of Israelis had been killed/taken hostage on Oct 7th we would be seeing about the same level of response from them.
The only logic I can see is that they hoped it would spark a wider uprising with groups like Hezbollah launching their own attacks, but it has not happened to anything like the scale they hoped. Also these are the kind of people who see their enemies as weak and lacking resolve, they possibly expected the wider response in Israel to be fear rather than anger. But it is always anger.
ska invita
back on the other side
Quite possibly true about wishing for a wider conflict... Mid term may yet happen tbh.
I would but describe the Israeli response as driven by anger though, more by righteous sense of destiny
PTK
Paul Kegan
It may not be purely coincidental that the attack by the military wing of Hamas and its allies on 7th October took place 50 years and one day after the joint Syrian and Egyptian attack on the State of Israel of 1973 (the October/Yom Kippur War) a war which was seen in the end to have strengthened the position of Egypt, if not Syria, with the State of Israel withdrawing from the Sinai Peninsula within ten years.
Even The Express seem to be unsure of where they stand. Stephen Fry completely ignores the Gaza scenario and they seem to be critical. Anything for a headline, clearly. Shame on Fry, though.
www.express.co.uk
Stephen Fry sparks fury after pro-Israel Channel 4 alternative Christmas message
One of Britain's most popular celebs came under fire after claiming antisemitism had become "an acceptable form of racism" in the UK.
Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
I guarantee that he is a victim of whatever echo chamber he has built around himself on social media. As we all are.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Back in 2008 Stephen Fry signed this letter saying those signing it would not be celebrating Israel 60th anniversary.
www.theguardian.com
I havent listened to his Xmas message so cant say if it means he has changed his mind. The letter is short and clear. No ambiguity to trick anyone into signing it.
Good letter btw.
Letters: We're not celebrating Israel's anniversary
Letters: Many will soon be celebrating the 60th anniversary of the state of Israel. Nevertheless, we are Jews who will not be celebrating
I havent listened to his Xmas message so cant say if it means he has changed his mind. The letter is short and clear. No ambiguity to trick anyone into signing it.
Good letter btw.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
All goes to show he is a typical grandstanding media luvvy/turd. Have never found him funny nor thought him intelligent (though compared to the average BBC woodentop he may be). He can just fuck offBack in 2008 Stephen Fry signed this letter saying those signing it would not be celebrating Israel 60th anniversary.
Letters: We're not celebrating Israel's anniversary
Letters: Many will soon be celebrating the 60th anniversary of the state of Israel. Nevertheless, we are Jews who will not be celebrating
I havent listened to his Xmas message so cant say if it means he has changed his mind. The letter is short and clear. No ambiguity to trick anyone into signing it.
Good letter btw.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Depends how you measure it, and humour is of course subjectivep
tbf, I think he's probably highly intelligent. Pretty funny in Blackadder too.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
If you ask me the re-emergence of anti-semitism as a serious problem seems to coincide with Ken Livingtone and Jeremy Corbyn becoming hate figures - and having made statements in the past which JC and Jake Wallis Simmons can go on and on about until everyone is sick of it.Back in 2008 Stephen Fry signed this letter saying those signing it would not be celebrating Israel 60th anniversary.
Letters: We're not celebrating Israel's anniversary
Letters: Many will soon be celebrating the 60th anniversary of the state of Israel. Nevertheless, we are Jews who will not be celebrating
I havent listened to his Xmas message so cant say if it means he has changed his mind. The letter is short and clear. No ambiguity to trick anyone into signing it.
Good letter btw.
Notwithstanding that this official US source actually confirmed what Livington and Corbyn said Refugees
"Over 60,000 German Jews immigrated to Palestine during the 1930s, most under the terms of the Haavara (Transfer) Agreement. This agreement between Germany and the Jewish authorities in Palestine facilitated Jewish emigration to Palestine. The main obstacle to emigration of Jews from Germany was German legislation banning the export of foreign currency. According to the agreement, Jewish assets in Germany would be disposed of in an orderly manner and the resulting capital transferred to Palestine through the export of German products. The British White Paper in May 1939, a policy statement approved by the British Parliament, contained measures that severely limited Jewish entry into Palestine."
All sorts of Labour MPs then claimed anti-semitism as their reason for joining the Lib Dems or founding new parties.
Now when there has been a catastrophic flare-up in Israel/Palestine and people want to demonstrate against Israeli tactics it becomes anti semitic or even anti British as far as JC and the Telegraph are concerned.
When and if the proposed new owners of the Telegraph take over the levers of power I wonder if the current neo Nazi journalists will continue to sing their song? Perhaps they will - after all the new owners may be more interested to keep the city sweet rather than do an Al Jazeera sand give us the facts:
RedBird IMI, led by the former CNN chief Jeff Zucker and mostly funded by Abu Dhabi royalty, is in line to take control of The Telegraph within weeks as part of its efforts to build an international media empire.20 Nov 2023
ska invita
back on the other side
He was good in Blackadder because the characters he played were stuck up establishment prigs....
tbf, I think he's probably highly intelligent. Pretty funny in Blackadder too.
Unbearable on QI... A real snob
As to intelligence I recently came across this fella, IQ 200+, described by some journalists as "the smartest man in America", who believes a shit tonne of conspiracy theories
Christopher Langan - Wikipedia
Similar threads
