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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

Mezzer said:
Even The Express seem to be unsure of where they stand. Stephen Fry completely ignores the Gaza scenario and they seem to be critical. Anything for a headline, clearly. Shame on Fry, though.

www.express.co.uk

Stephen Fry sparks fury after pro-Israel Channel 4 alternative Christmas message

One of Britain's most popular celebs came under fire after claiming antisemitism had become "an acceptable form of racism" in the UK.
www.express.co.uk www.express.co.uk
Click to expand...

I liked this response from David Rosenberg

threadreaderapp.com

Thread by @davidjrosenberg on Thread Reader App

@davidjrosenberg: So I watched Stephen Fry’s “Alternative” Xmas broadcast yesterday hoping for some enlightenment, but was left wondering what it was an alternative to, and what a missed opportunity it was. 1/12 A C...…
threadreaderapp.com threadreaderapp.com
 
Gramsci said:
Sai does write off Israel working class as far as any change goes. The way the Israel state was set up and works means that Israeli working class materially benefit from the dispossession of Palestinians. He uses the example of settlement building. Protests in Israel about cost of housing can be quietened down by more settlement building on Palestinian land.

Historically Labour Zionism - which was the ruling form post 48 for several decades- bound the workers to the State.

So for Sai appealing the the Israeli working class is a non starter.

To counter this , in short, his view is Palestine has to be seen in a broader struggle across the Middle East. Palestine cannot be freed unless rest of the middle east regimes go as well.

What I found lacking in second part is any picture of what a post Zionist Israel/ Palestine would look like. What would happen to the Israeli working class under this toppling across the Middle East of reactionary regimes by popular protest. At what point would they suddenly see the light and join in?

As well as struggling against this colonial settler society I would have thought some kind of vision of a future is needed. Some kind of at least provisional ideas about how to work with at least sections of Israeli society.

Sai argues that any concessions to appealing to Israeli working class/ society is giving succour to Zionism. This to me appears to harsh on a practical level. But still I may be wrong.

Sai says at this time its not in material interest of Israelis to oppose the Zionist project. That a few Israelis do but they are and always have been a tiny minority.
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This is the big question for me, and imo one of the reasons why it's worth bearing a class analysis in mind, even if that is alongside other frameworks. I think the likes of Englert are right in saying that Israeli workers do materially benefit from the oppression of Palestinians, but then it is also the case that workers in countries like the US and UK do materially benefit from global imperialism. I don't think that means we're always and forever tied to the interests of our rulers, so I have a hard time accepting that argument about Israel.
Obviously, a great deal, probably the vast majority, of Israeli workers do have really horrible views today, but you have to believe that people can change - after all, I'm writing this from a country where the tories have won every election since 2010.
As for what a more hopeful future could look like, I think it's notable that the last time we did see big class/economic-based protests in Israel was in 2011, as a local expression of the wave of revolt that was going around both the Middle East and the wider world as a whole. Obviously that didn't go far enough, and didn't shatter national unity the way we'd want it to, but then what ever does go far enough?
 
.
CH1 said:
When and if the proposed new owners of the Telegraph take over the levers of power I wonder if the current neo Nazi journalists will continue to sing their song? Perhaps they will - after all the new owners may be more interested to keep the city sweet rather than do an Al Jazeera sand give us the facts:

RedBird IMI, led by the former CNN chief Jeff Zucker and mostly funded by Abu Dhabi royalty, is in line to take control of The Telegraph within weeks as part of its efforts to build an international media empire.20 Nov 2023
Click to expand...

Al Jazeera is owned by Qatari royalty rather than Abu Dhabi royalty, so gives facts in a way that further their interests.
 
tim said:
.

Al Jazeera is owned by Qatari royalty rather than Abu Dhabi royalty, so gives facts in a way that further their interests.
Click to expand...
Funnily enough I have an Egyptian friend in Cairo who didn't used to have a good word for Al Jazeera (not sure if this continues).
My friend supports the present Egyptian leader - and is highly sceptical of Erdogan.
 
tim said:
.

Al Jazeera is owned by Qatari royalty rather than Abu Dhabi royalty, so gives facts in a way that further their interests.
Click to expand...
As I think you know, the way Al Jazeera furthers Qatari interests is quite nuanced. It is an exercise in soft power, bit like the BBC for the British government. It wants Al Jaz to have a reputation for integrity, trustworthiness and editorial independence.

I'm not saying AlJ doesn't have problems associated with its ownership, but show me a major media concern that doesn't. They all do, Al Jazeera less than most tbh. It's not like, say, RT, which is a tightly controlled propaganda arm of the Russian state and has a reputation for trustworthiness commensurate with that.

And in terms of reporting on Gaza, I don't see any other news channel that touches it. How many Al Jazeera journalists have been killed so far? I've lost count. And yet still they report.
 
I've been watching a lot of Al Jazeera. Coverage of international issues is good.

Has good commentators like Mirwan Bashar.

It does have an angle. Which is it foregrounding the view from the middle East. Where the "Arab street" as it's called has a different viewpoint to mainstream West.

The oppression of Palestinians over the years is taken as an uncontested given in their news reporting

Inside Story is also pretty good news section that focuses on one issue.

And as has been said it's had reporters on the ground in Gaza. Some killed or have list their friends and families in the bombing.

On the in the ground reporting in Gaza it's done an extremely good job in making sure this has coverage.
 
Yeah it has an angle. It very certainly does not hide the collective disgust for what Israel is doing. And yes, that this whole thing didn't start on 7 October 2023 is taken as read, as it will be for the vast majority of its viewers in the Middle East (horrible Europe-centric term that we're stuck with there - it's West Asia).

The BBC didn't hide its collective disgust for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. I didn't have a problem with that or think the BBC must be reporting bullshit as a result. Sadly the BBC doesn't seem to feel a collective disgust about Gaza.
 
I see that Stephen Fry regards being Jewish as genetic.

Culture and/or religion are not genetically determined. It is surprising that Stephen Fry believes this racist nonsense.
 
CH1 said:
Funnily enough I have an Egyptian friend in Cairo who didn't used to have a good word for Al Jazeera (not sure if this continues).
My friend supports the present Egyptian leader - and is highly sceptical of Erdogan.
Click to expand...
Your friend's hero led a coup that overthrew democratically elected predecessor and then had him murdered in prison. He has had many others killed, gaoled and tortured too.
 
Sisi is a grade A scumbag most definitely but the fact that he doesn't want the Palestinians ethnically cleansed to the Sinai for reasons of his own is one of the few tiny glimmers of light in this whole catastrophe.
 
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I don't have an issue (much) with what Stephen Fry said. He's identifying as a Jew because he's a Jew to anti-semites and he's raising awareness of anti-semitism and that's about it. I can't have a problem with that and frankly good for him. He mentions the conflict (really genocide) and alights very briefly to say something about victims of violence on both sides which is underwhelming and disappointing sure, but then it's Stephen Fry were you expecting him to rock the boat? There's far worse commentary out there. Weird distraction and completely irrelevant to the ongoing slaughter.
 
teqniq said:
This article serves as a good reminder:

www.middleeasteye.net

Israel's mass murder of Palestinians in Gaza began seven decades ago

Israel's ongoing genocidal assault on Palestinian civilians in Gaza is part of a long and brutal history that goes back to 1951
www.middleeasteye.net www.middleeasteye.net
Click to expand...

Good article.

It's not that well known that after the Nakba of 48 Palestinians were still being expelled and killed in what were termed the Border Wars.

With raiding excursions into Gaza to kill and terrorise the Palestinian refugees.

All for trying to return to their homes.

This as he points up was not done by hard right Netanyahu but under Labour Zionism.

For Palestinians right and left Zionism have done the same to them over the years.

David Ben Gurion is mentioned in this article. His name crops up repeatedly in what I have been reading of the history of Palestine.

In Ilan Pappe book on the Nakba a leader of the ethnic cleansing.

In Mandate Palestine a leading light in the development of Labour Zionism. The Histadrut - the Zionist trade union- Ben Gurion was one of those who made sure Palestinian working class could not join. This Jewish only union was part of the Zionist building a state in waiting so to speak under British tacit approval.

In Mandate Palestine the Palestinian working class - small but growing - in the cities had to deal with not only British Imperialism but the growing Zionist movement in Mandate Palestine.
 
tim said:
Your friend's hero led a coup that overthrew democratically elected predecessor and then had him murdered in prison. He has had many others killed, gaoled and tortured too.
Click to expand...
I don't discuss politics with him in depth but anyone can see that politics in Egypt is rough - and there is no habeus corpus or anything like that.
Hazem got quite exercised by this curious episode in Isantbul when President Erdogan reclaimed the Hagga Sohia museum as a mosque
The rich symbolism of the 11th-century miracle and other instances of Orthodox practice is certainly lost in the current strategy of veiling at Hagia Sophia. Ideological struggles over this world heritage structure since 1934 reveal the extent to which the monument serves as a symbol for the staking of political power and religious authority among Christians, Muslims and secularists in Turkey and beyond.

file-20200813-24-ci8h5h.jpg

The mosaic, left, depicts The Virgin Mary and Jesus in the Byzantine-era Hagia Sophia. On the photo on the right, the mosaic is covered with sail-like drapes. AP Photo/Emrah Gurel/Yasin Akgul
Maybe Hazem is sympathetic to Christian artwork, as 10% of Egyptians are Copts - ands the Copts suffered very badly under Morsi with bombed out churches, kidnappings etc.
 
let’s not mention the British status quo.
You got a giant lizard in charge of you, a fucking Nazi that proclaims to own everything you own. .
And that’s just how things are.




Wake up

The holocaust is work in progress.
Data centers consuming massive amounts of electricity.
Don’t you think it’s unseasonably warm?
How did you cope last summer?
Did anyone care to check the temperature not by their phone?



Ridicule me all you want. At least no one can say we didn’t warn you. I’m out. Good luck with your triple locked pensions and being told what to do.

Idiots.

And your political correctness makes me piss me pants. No threads with female genitalia (which we are scared of so we mustn’t mention it) in the title.
Whilst you pile onto a thread about sCUNThorpe.
Your politics are so wanky as to be flaccidly ineffective. Arguing about antisemitism whilst there’s a fucking genocide going on. Suck up your illusions dickheads. Most of you wouldn’t be where you are without the status quo.

Laters taters.

🫶


Free ninjaboy
 
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Boris Sprinkler said:
let’s not mention the British status quo.
You got a giant lizard in charge of you, a fucking Nazi that proclaims to own everything you own. .
And that’s just how things are.




Wake up

The holocaust is work in progress.
Data centers consuming massive amounts of electricity.
Don’t you think it’s unseasonably warm?
How did you cope last summer?
Did anyone care to check the temperature not by their phone?



Ridicule me all you want. At least no one can say we didn’t warn you. I’m out. Good luck with your triple locked pensions and being told what to do.

Idiots.

And your political correctness makes me piss me pants. No threads with female genitalia (which we are scared of so we mustn’t mention it) in the title.
Whilst you pile onto a thread about sCUNThorpe.
Your politics are so wanky as to be flaccidly ineffective. Arguing about antisemitism whilst there’s a fucking genocide going on. Suck up your illusions dickheads. Most of you wouldn’t be where you are without the status quo.

Laters taters.

🫶


Free ninjaboy
Click to expand...
Icke can't believe your going down that rabbit hole.
 
CH1 said:
I don't discuss politics with him in depth but anyone can see that politics in Egypt is rough - and there is no habeus corpus or anything like that.
Hazem got quite exercised by this curious episode in Isantbul when President Erdogan reclaimed the Hagga Sohia museum as a mosque
The rich symbolism of the 11th-century miracle and other instances of Orthodox practice is certainly lost in the current strategy of veiling at Hagia Sophia. Ideological struggles over this world heritage structure since 1934 reveal the extent to which the monument serves as a symbol for the staking of political power and religious authority among Christians, Muslims and secularists in Turkey and beyond.

file-20200813-24-ci8h5h.jpg

The mosaic, left, depicts The Virgin Mary and Jesus in the Byzantine-era Hagia Sophia. On the photo on the right, the mosaic is covered with sail-like drapes. AP Photo/Emrah Gurel/Yasin Akgul
Maybe Hazem is sympathetic to Christian artwork, as 10% of Egyptians are Copts - ands the Copts suffered very badly under Morsi with bombed out churches, kidnappings etc.
Click to expand...
Yes, mass murdering dictators who overthrow elected leaders tend to be a bit "rough".
 
Last edited:
Boris Sprinkler said:
let’s not mention the British status quo.
You got a giant lizard in charge of you, a fucking Nazi that proclaims to own everything you own. .
And that’s just how things are.




Wake up

The holocaust is work in progress.
Data centers consuming massive amounts of electricity.
Don’t you think it’s unseasonably warm?
How did you cope last summer?
Did anyone care to check the temperature not by their phone?



Ridicule me all you want. At least no one can say we didn’t warn you. I’m out. Good luck with your triple locked pensions and being told what to do.

Idiots.

And your political correctness makes me piss me pants. No threads with female genitalia (which we are scared of so we mustn’t mention it) in the title.
Whilst you pile onto a thread about sCUNThorpe.
Your politics are so wanky as to be flaccidly ineffective. Arguing about antisemitism whilst there’s a fucking genocide going on. Suck up your illusions dickheads. Most of you wouldn’t be where you are without the status quo.

Laters taters.

🫶


Free ninjaboy
Click to expand...

Tells urban to wake up whilst moaning about woke politics.

Still. At least he has the luxury to do so, when over twenty thousand lie dead, and probably more to succumb to this madness.
 
Boris Sprinkler said:
let’s not mention the British status quo.
You got a giant lizard in charge of you, a fucking Nazi that proclaims to own everything you own. .
And that’s just how things are.




Wake up

The holocaust is work in progress.
Data centers consuming massive amounts of electricity.
Don’t you think it’s unseasonably warm?
How did you cope last summer?
Did anyone care to check the temperature not by their phone?



Ridicule me all you want. At least no one can say we didn’t warn you. I’m out. Good luck with your triple locked pensions and being told what to do.

Idiots.

And your political correctness makes me piss me pants. No threads with female genitalia (which we are scared of so we mustn’t mention it) in the title.
Whilst you pile onto a thread about sCUNThorpe.
Your politics are so wanky as to be flaccidly ineffective. Arguing about antisemitism whilst there’s a fucking genocide going on. Suck up your illusions dickheads. Most of you wouldn’t be where you are without the status quo.

Laters taters.

🫶


Free ninjaboy
Click to expand...
Once again you demonstrate that it is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than post some awful shite and prove yourself one
 
Gramsci said:
Good article.

It's not that well known that after the Nakba of 48 Palestinians were still being expelled and killed in what were termed the Border Wars.

With raiding excursions into Gaza to kill and terrorise the Palestinian refugees.

All for trying to return to their homes.

This as he points up was not done by hard right Netanyahu but under Labour Zionism.

For Palestinians right and left Zionism have done the same to them over the years.

David Ben Gurion is mentioned in this article. His name crops up repeatedly in what I have been reading of the history of Palestine.

In Ilan Pappe book on the Nakba a leader of the ethnic cleansing.

In Mandate Palestine a leading light in the development of Labour Zionism. The Histadrut - the Zionist trade union- Ben Gurion was one of those who made sure Palestinian working class could not join. This Jewish only union was part of the Zionist building a state in waiting so to speak under British tacit approval.

In Mandate Palestine the Palestinian working class - small but growing - in the cities had to deal with not only British Imperialism but the growing Zionist movement in Mandate Palestine.
Click to expand...

I take your broader point, but nothing now quite compares to what is happening now in terms of brutality, not even 1947-8 Nakba.

There's always been this backlash against Palestine solidarity that says there is worse going on elsewhere in the world. Well firstly not now! But secondly what is happening now was always on the cards. Where you have a situation where an entire group of people are regarded as inherently alien/hostile/not belonging/(literally) a demographic threat, then genocide was going to happen eventually. It just required that escalation. I think what happened in Israeli public opinion shift to the (far) right over the last 20 years is a shift to acceptance.

Labour Zionism is racist (and actually quite weird), racist towards Mizrahi Jews (and consequently deeply unpopular among them) as well as Arabs. (I can't stand this lionisation of Golda Meir - she was more naturally racist than someone like Netanyahu even IMO). But as historian Benny Morris likes to point out, the Nakba didn't involve the expulsion of the entire Palestinian population (he thinks it should have!), there is an element of restraint there with someone like Ben Gurion however slight. Labour Zionism never understood the Arabs, they thought they would just (in part) move on with the help of a big stick and otherwise integrate.
 
Wow, so Boris is a full blown loon. I'd always assumed the space x isn't real stuff was a wind up but clearly I was badly wrong. Satire really is dead isn't it?
 
Knotted said:
I take your broader point, but nothing now quite compares to what is happening now in terms of brutality, not even 1947-8 Nakba.

There's always been this backlash against Palestine solidarity that says there is worse going on elsewhere in the world. Well firstly not now! But secondly what is happening now was always on the cards. Where you have a situation where an entire group of people are regarded as inherently alien/hostile/not belonging/(literally) a demographic threat, then genocide was going to happen eventually. It just required that escalation. I think what happened in Israeli public opinion shift to the (far) right over the last 20 years is a shift to acceptance.

Labour Zionism is racist (and actually quite weird), racist towards Mizrahi Jews (and consequently deeply unpopular among them) as well as Arabs. (I can't stand this lionisation of Golda Meir - she was more naturally racist than someone like Netanyahu even IMO). But as historian Benny Morris likes to point out, the Nakba didn't involve the expulsion of the entire Palestinian population (he thinks it should have!), there is an element of restraint there with someone like Ben Gurion however slight. Labour Zionism never understood the Arabs, they thought they would just (in part) move on with the help of a big stick and otherwise integrate.
Click to expand...
A minor point, perhaps, but could you expand on what you mean by golda meir being 'more naturally racist than someone like Netanyahu'?
 
Pickman's model said:
A minor point, perhaps, but could you expand on what you mean by golda meir being 'more naturally racist than someone like Netanyahu'?
Click to expand...

There's a cold certainty to her. A genuine ideologue. Netanyahu is an ideologue but he's also a corrupt opportunist. The Labour Zionists had a strong vision of what they wanted Jews to be ie. a sort European Ubermensch. Racist even towards Jews of the wrong origin.
 
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