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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

teqniq said:
Thinly veiled excuse for more indiscriminate bombing:
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That first tweet is slightly problematic in that it seems to deny the tunnel network... Ive not seen the extent of it with my own eyes but the tunnel network is widely agreed to exist across Gaza, I dont think that is disputed. The genocidal rational that therefore Israel has the right to level the entirety of Gaza to rubble and tell what remains of the 2 million people to either shelter in the desert or quote "that the sea is open" to them must be called out for what it is - ethnic cleansing - tunnel network or not.
 
The temperature on this thread/topic is at boiling point.

But is it a good thing to vent or bottle it up?

Guess it's down to individual posters and where our conscience takes us (or doesn't).

Sorry to ramble. No real answers to put out there.
 
This is aimed at LDC but I won't tag him, so he can read it if he wants to but won't get alerts (do you get alerts when ignoring, I dunno). In terms of antisemitism on the left, I get it. Without getting into a massive detour, there have been lazy attitudes, fellow travelling and some outright antisemitism, across the left. All that was there in the Corbyn stuff, for example, and needs challenging. The willingness to challenge it varies across the left and the more opportunist left are less willing. Ditto, the spread of conspiracy theories, too many rabbit holes and too many trap doors out of decent politics.

But I'm just not seeing that in this thread, aside from a couple of instances. And, to be honest, you seem to be conflating all that with other instances where posters have merely posted stuff up without checking. Really not the same thing. In fact, this has been a thread, massively pro-Palestinian of course, that has avoided all that (again, for the vast majority of posters). It's been a thread rooted in an understanding of the history and deeply aware of the conditions of life for people in Palestine. So, what I'd question is why you are choosing to emphasise all the flaws you see on the thread, why you want to emphasise that, at the moment Israel is pounding Gaza into non-existence. I'm not calling on you to join up and follow the line, I'm genuinely wondering why you are focusing so much on it being a shit thread? Seems to me it's really easy to challenge Islamism/Hamas, to challenge drifts into conspiracies, whilst also focusing on the daily slaughter that is happening in real time.
 
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Larry O'Hara said:
I find this thread useful as it has links to latest atrocities, which I learn from. The mainstream media just infuriates me: and speaking to nonpolitical middle of the road relatives over the weekend pleasantly surprised they are seeing through the likes of the BBC too…
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In this instance, the mainstream media neither reflects nor leads public opinion.
 
ska invita said:
That first tweet is slightly problematic in that it seems to deny the tunnel network...
Click to expand...
Not sure it does. While I agree with you that there could be the most sophisticated tunnel network ever created and it still wouldn't justify the slaughter, the tweet is specific about a claim that 'every second house has an entrance'.

Here's a BBC article from 13 October bigging up the network. Who knows what the actual extent of the tunnels is?

Israel targets Hamas’s labyrinth of tunnels under Gaza

Their maps all come from Israel. And note how they uncritically report the words of their Israeli 'expert':

"Hamas is very good at using human shields. Once a strike is imminent and they know it, they will put innocent civilians on top of buildings. That has forced Israel to cancel strikes many times,"
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They even filled hospitals with innocent patients this time round, the scoundrels.
 
Wilf said:
This is aimed at LDC but I won't tag him, so he can read it if he wants to but won't get alerts (do you get alerts when ignoring, I dunno). In terms of antisemitism on the left, I get it. Without getting into a massive detour, there have been lazy attitudes, fellow travelling and some outright antisemitism, across the left. All that was there in the Corbyn stuff, for example, and needs challenging. The willingness to challenge it varies across the left and the more opportunist left are less willing. Ditto, the spread of conspiracy theories, too many rabbit holes and too many trap doors out of decent politics.

But I'm just not seeing that in this thread, aside from a couple of instances. And, to be honest, you seem to be conflating all that with other instances where posters have merely posted stuff up without checking. Really not the same thing. In fact, this has been a thread, massively pro-Palestinian of course, that has avoided all that (again, for the vast majority of posters). It's been a thread rooted in an understanding of the history and deeply aware of the conditions of life for people in Palestine. So, what I'd question is why you are choosing to emphasise all the flaws you see on the thread, why you want to emphasise that, at the moment Israel is pounding Gaza into non-existence. I'm not calling on you to join up and follow the line, I'm genuinely wondering why you are focusing so much on it being a shit thread? Seems to me it's really easy to challenge Islamism/Hamas, to challenge drifts into conspiracies, whilst also focusing on the daily slaughter that is happening in real time.
Click to expand...

There's been a lot of work over the years to keep U75 free of anti-semitism and conspiracy theory. I don't want to sound complacent but this thread could be so much worse than it is.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Not sure it does. While I agree with you that there could be the most sophisticated tunnel network ever created and it still wouldn't justify the slaughter, the tweet is specific about a claim that 'every second house has an entrance'.

Here's a BBC article from 13 October bigging up the network. Who knows what the actual extent of the tunnels is?

Israel targets Hamas’s labyrinth of tunnels under Gaza

Note how they uncritically report the words of their Israeli 'expert':



They even filled hospitals with innocent patients this time round, the scoundrels.
Click to expand...
Regarding that claim, it may well have originated with the Israeli UK ambassador:

 
teqniq said:
This is pretty nuts. It seems there was a lot of short selling of Israeli shares just prior to the October 7th attacks indicating that someone had prior knowledge of the attack. Nothing at this time is proven but the speculation in the article is that it was Hamas or someone connected to them that was responsible:

Did Hamas Make Billions Betting Against Israeli Shares Before October 7 Massacre?
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Doesn’t surprise me, one way of funding their operations and paying off their Iranian masters.
 
teqniq said:
If it hadn't been published by Haaretz, I would agree but the research has been done by people who know their stuff. Someone or some people, made a lot of money.
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Well, tbf, profiteering from conflict is as old as the hills. Even without Haaretz verification.

Imagine there will be plenty more twists and turns... as ever, we all know the first casualty of war is truth.

It's really really hard to get behind a lot of the stuff coming out at the moment, as you can appreciate.
 
teqniq said:
This is pretty nuts. It seems there was a lot of short selling of Israeli shares just prior to the October 7th attacks indicating that someone had prior knowledge of the attack. Nothing at this time is proven but the speculation in the article is that it was Hamas or someone connected to them that was responsible:

Did Hamas Make Billions Betting Against Israeli Shares Before October 7 Massacre?
Click to expand...
Should be remembered that Israel was already in an ongoing political crisis, so people may have been betting against Israeli shares without necessarily knowing anything about what Hamas were up to.
 
teqniq said:
This is pretty nuts. It seems there was a lot of short selling of Israeli shares just prior to the October 7th attacks indicating that someone had prior knowledge of the attack. Nothing at this time is proven but the speculation in the article is that it was Hamas or someone connected to them that was responsible:

Did Hamas Make Billions Betting Against Israeli Shares Before October 7 Massacre?
Click to expand...
Those of us with long memories will recall the same being wondered about Al qaeda and 9/11
 
planetgeli said:
Mate, that's not an answer.

A) Look, I might have missed something, but can you name the 'several posters who have felt the need to leave Urban altogether' because of this thread?

B) If 'many, many people' don't post on this thread anymore (I can think of DLR) what are they doing in a debating chamber? It only becomes an echo chamber when people run away.

C) The insinuation is one shite poster and a couple of naive posters taint us all. If I was Gramsci in particular I would be pissed off with this. I am pissed off with this. I imagine several others are too. It's not on, any more than WLT's pissed up posts aren't on. (He turned on me, pissed, months ago out of nowhere on a cricket thread. Am I meant to say therefore all posters on the cricket thread are tainted by him/that?)

Why don't you post up Howard Jacobson's piece in the Observer yesterday? He put forward a different point of view, completely sneering in tone IMO, but a different view.

Do you want debate or not? Any of you, not just you. Running away to me just makes me wonder why the fuck you came in the first place. Or is it because it's not your echo chamber?
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I’ve always had bags of time for you mate . If you are genuinely interested drop me a PM. But it isn’t something I’m comfortable with sharing on a thread where some , admittedly idiots, scream that people are ‘genocide supporters ‘ for daring to raise a different view.
 
A380 said:
I’ve always had bags of time for you mate . If you are genuinely interested drop me a PM. But it isn’t something I’m comfortable with sharing on a thread where some , admittedly idiots, scream that people are ‘genocide supporters ‘ for daring to raise a different view.
Click to expand...
And there you go again - 'some idiots'.

You still haven't outlined exactly what the groupthink is. Or even roughly what the groupthink is.
 
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