Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
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With this whole conflict which is awful it is hard what to believe and what not to believe as there is so much propaganda from all sides. This is so so tragic.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Rule of thumb: Israel is lying.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Sorry, no transport provided - they have to walk
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Important to acknowledge its not just Israel that lies about stuff during war. Every state at war, lies. Lies about what it does, what the enemy does, casualties, progress, everything. Propaganda goes off the scale. This is normal.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
No I don't think that is important right now. The important thing is to call out the lies from the only 'side' in this 'war' that is killing people right now.
This is not a war of Israel vs Hamas. It is a genocide by Israel.
Since Israel are the only state involved in this war, I guess that means it’s best to assume they’re the biggest liars.
ska invita
back on the other side
very true... but this kind of blatant trolling like the hospital director requesting everyone leave is pretty special pisstaking bullshit
This- it is like trolling- most of it transparent bullshit
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The babies had a meeting and decided they'd rather die than be born into this world.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Been reading more of history of IDF today.
Gaza has come up. From 48 to around 1954 Palestinians went back from Gaza to their land. Tried to harvest crops and attempt to move back to homes.
UN did say refugees should have right to return.
To stop this Ben Gurion and Ariel Sharon set up special military unit modelled on the infamous Special Night Squads of Orde Wingate that terrorised Palestinian villages in Arab Revolt. Called Unit 101
Example of how Zionists learnt from British imperial practice in keeping colonised people down
Page 171 of An Army like no Other
IDF treated these people as "infiltratiors"
Despite having right to return by UN.
IDF murdered thousands over five year period.
Eventually by 1955 people largely gave up
The attacks by IDF were cross the border to attack Palestine refugees camps. Supposedly retaliation for "incursions" on Israel.
Israel tried to settle people on Palestinian land near Gaza. These were not that successful as the new Israeli people did not have farming skills. So became a burden on the new state. But fulfilled a necessary function.
The intention was to house Jewish people in abandoned Palestinian villages along the border between Gaza and Israel to block Palestinians trying to return.
These I guess were some of the settlement attacked by Hamas
So the context is that killing Palestinians to take their land and confine them to Gaza goes all way back to 1950s.
And this wasn't done under hard right government of someone like Netanyahu.
Murdering and terrorising Palestinians in Gaza has a long history.
It's been integral to building an Israeli state
Gaza has come up. From 48 to around 1954 Palestinians went back from Gaza to their land. Tried to harvest crops and attempt to move back to homes.
UN did say refugees should have right to return.
To stop this Ben Gurion and Ariel Sharon set up special military unit modelled on the infamous Special Night Squads of Orde Wingate that terrorised Palestinian villages in Arab Revolt. Called Unit 101
Example of how Zionists learnt from British imperial practice in keeping colonised people down
Page 171 of An Army like no Other
IDF treated these people as "infiltratiors"
Despite having right to return by UN.
IDF murdered thousands over five year period.
Eventually by 1955 people largely gave up
The attacks by IDF were cross the border to attack Palestine refugees camps. Supposedly retaliation for "incursions" on Israel.
Israel tried to settle people on Palestinian land near Gaza. These were not that successful as the new Israeli people did not have farming skills. So became a burden on the new state. But fulfilled a necessary function.
The intention was to house Jewish people in abandoned Palestinian villages along the border between Gaza and Israel to block Palestinians trying to return.
These I guess were some of the settlement attacked by Hamas
So the context is that killing Palestinians to take their land and confine them to Gaza goes all way back to 1950s.
And this wasn't done under hard right government of someone like Netanyahu.
Murdering and terrorising Palestinians in Gaza has a long history.
It's been integral to building an Israeli state
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agricola
a genuine importer of owls
This level of incompetent lying is not normal. Countries do make up statistics and claims all the time during war, but I can't think of too many that just churn out things that are either blatantly obvious fibs (the calendar for instance) or so specific that they can be debunked completely by events (such as al-Shifa). Even the fundamental narrative that has been used - that Hamas attacked without warning on October 7th - is directly contradicted by their narrative that they are only targeting Hamas based on the intelligence they have of what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank.
One of the things we as a society need to understand is that such a lack of effort / poor effort suggests convincing us (the wider population) is of low or more likely no importance; their focus is (and has been for years) on influencing the political and media leadership, where the Israeli government has been far more successful. Politicians and commentators throughout the West are still chanting the same nonsense despite clearly genocidal rhetoric coming out of senior ministers in the Israeli government, and despite blatant daily breaches of international law.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
I'm not going to quote everyone, points are all well made. I'm just going to add that we're skating very close here to some kind of anti-semitism, Israeli lies are worse than anyone else's, Israel controls the international narrative... If so then how? Why? This kind of stuff is playing into the hands of all kinds of shit people and I'm saying that out loud. I'm not going to harp on it, but ffs can we be careful. kthxbai.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There is a flip-side to this, one that has been used as a shield by Israel for a long time. Don't call out our lies without also calling out all the lies told by everyone else all over the world. If you do, you're an anti-Semite.
But Israel is currently committing genocide and lying its arse off in a particularly egregious way about almost every aspect of its operation. That needs calling out. Without caveats or qualifications or 'yeah but there are other bad people in the world too'. Nobody is told to do that with Putin. Well, remember the Rohingya and the Ughyurs, it's not just Russia.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It bears repeating for anyone who thinks there needs to be BBC-like 'balance' here.
Israel is committing genocide. Right now. In front of the world.
Genocide.
Israel is committing genocide. Right now. In front of the world.
Genocide.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I've posted Rashid Khalidi before.
His view is that Israel has always needed international support. Balfour declaration through to Biden.
So the international narrative has been something Zionism has pursued from early days . For quite clear political reasons. Not because they are specifically Jewish.
Chaim Weizmann for example spent a lot of effort in getting international western support for a Zionist state. Straight forward lobbying and networking.
This isn't about anti semitism it's what happened.
Telling people they are anti Semitic for saying this is par for the course.
Rashid Khalidi view is that Palestinians should make more effort to do the same.
Make a counter narrative.
Rashid Khalidi as an historian has done this . As well as Israeli historian Ilan Pappe.
His view is that Israel has always needed international support. Balfour declaration through to Biden.
So the international narrative has been something Zionism has pursued from early days . For quite clear political reasons. Not because they are specifically Jewish.
Chaim Weizmann for example spent a lot of effort in getting international western support for a Zionist state. Straight forward lobbying and networking.
This isn't about anti semitism it's what happened.
Telling people they are anti Semitic for saying this is par for the course.
Rashid Khalidi view is that Palestinians should make more effort to do the same.
Make a counter narrative.
Rashid Khalidi as an historian has done this . As well as Israeli historian Ilan Pappe.
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Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Criticism of Israel, of the IDF, of Zionism (in all its manifestations), of Judaism (practices and theology) - none of this is antisemitic in and of itself. We should all be able to criticise, attack, denounce or merely quibble about any and all of these without having to preface our opinions with ritualistic comments about Hamas or anything else.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
To the beach. They can go surfing.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Absolutely right - almost. I'd say right now that Israeli lies are part of the Israeli regime's campaign to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Looked at that way, they are worse than the lies anyone else may be putting out right now, at least in the short term. In the longer term, the world's anti-semites are going to think that all their Christmases have come at once. . .
And the likely results of that should be obvious to all.
WhyLikeThis
Something, something, something
Another precision strike on Hamas
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Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Fucking hell. Spoiler please.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
I don't think they do control the narrative. Their propaganda stuff is being openly and universally mocked. But for political/strategic reasons the US, UK and various other players don't give a shit about truth or morality and will continue to back Israel no matter what.
Even the 'criticism of Israel is anti-semitic' thing has largely stopped working. Because it's bullshit, but also because it was never really sustained by some all-powerful secret conspiracy. It was all done in plain sight for entirely cynical and self-interested reasons, mostly by people who are not Israeli or Jewish.
I don't think people should be goaded into adding '...and what Hamas did was evil' onto everything. We should be able to take that as read. If we're not talking to people who share a fundamental belief that the violent deaths of innocents are a bad thing then there's really no point talking at all. Those crimes are not ongoing, Israel's are.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I agree with most of this, however the 'Criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic' line is pushed very hard by the Israeli government itself.
Here's Mark Regev, then Israeli ambassador to the UK, speaking in 2018.
Antisemitism on the left and Jeremy Corbyn | Letters
Like the current president, Regev is no r/w extremist. He's a career diplomat with leftist sympathies.
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andysays
Love and solidarity
This is true of pretty much every state's war (and other) campaigning - that lying is a deliberate and integral part of the overall strategy, so it certainly isn't antisemitic or anything else to point it out, providing no one suggests that Israel's lies are qualitatively different to the lies put about by the Russian state around Ukraine, or by the UK and US states around conflicts of recent memory.
And I certainly haven't noticed anyone here doing that, TBH.
PTK
Paul Kegan
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Granted, but it wouldn't hold any water here in the UK if wasn't parroted by UK politicians. Again, they do this for entirely transparent and cynical reasons unrelated to any real concern for the welfare of Jews or anyone else.
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