Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[teqniq]

Something positive:

 

[editor]

How awful is this

 

[Gramsci]

Granted, but it wouldn't hold any water here in the UK if wasn't parroted by UK politicians. Again, they do this for entirely transparent and cynical reasons unrelated to any real concern for the welfare of Jews or anyone else.

I think this is to blanket a view

I certainly think anti semitism has been "weaponised" to get rid of left in Labour party. Including getting rid of any policies on economy etc that the right didn't like. In that way it was used cynical. Used in factional fight with left over politics that were not all about Palestine.

However some politicians and groups like Jewish Labour movement genuinely think that supporting a ceasefire is de facto supporting Hamas.

JLM / British Board of deputies both oppose ceasefire. Been clear on that

Politicians like Steve Reed and Starmer do I think also genuinely believe that supporting Israel in way they do is showing they aren't anti Semitic.

Looking at IHRA definition and examples saying that Israel is a racist state against Palestinians is tantamount to anti semitism.

As is calling for a one state solution. As this is denying Jews right to national self determination.

I started reading the history ( before the present conflict) as wanted make my own mind up. Been reading about British Empire before and Mandate came up with the Arab Revolt.

So no I don't think it's all cynical. There are different views. And there isn't going to be a meetings of minds on this.

What I do think is cynical is when politicians go on about a two state solution. They now full well it's not going to be two equal states

 

[Ax^]

How awful is this

that is some dystopian shite right about there

 

[Gramsci]

How awful is this

Al Jazeera was reporting doctors in hospital saying they have been treating people who bullet wounds to upper body consistent with being shot from above by drones.

 

[Gramsci]

that is some dystopian shite right about there

On Novara Media Ash Sarkar was saying that one reason to support Palestinians is that it's a prelude to wars/ conflict that will result due to climate change/ climate breakdown. Which will lead to people trying to migrate in massive numbers.

So chanting we are all Palestinians isn't that far out.

( She wasn't saying this was peculiarly Jewish thing. The dystopian side of it was general to rest of world)

You saying it was dystopia reminded me.

Keeping people out whilst protecting what one has is being shown here in real time. The dehumanisation of refugees is being shown in this conflict.

There is something dystopian about the whole past weeks of this conflict. I read science fiction. Not to belittle what is happening it does remind me of sci fi dystopia.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Looking at IHRA definition and examples saying that Israel is a racist state against Palestinians is tantamount to anti semitism.

As is calling for a one state solution. As this is denying Jews right to national self determination.

So anyone who doesn't fully support national self determination for Kurds, Sikhs, Welsh, Cornish, Bretons, Quebecois, Basques, Uighurs, Chechens etc etc etc is racist. Well, that is a position which I can understand, but how many Zionists do you hear giving vent to this position?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Good question being asked right now on Al Jazeera. Why have the Israelis forcibly evacuated Al-Shifa hospital? Are they going to blow the whole thing up? Is this part of a plan to make the Gaza Strip entirely unfit for human habitation? And perhaps also a spectacular symbolic end to this stage in their 'conquest' of Gaza by destroying the supposed headquarters of Hamas (at the same time, of course, conveniently destroying the evidence that it was no such thing).

 

[Gramsci]

I think they are intentionally removing infrastructure like hospitals from northern Gaza to make it impossible to come back.

What government and IDF have been doing is ethnic cleansing.

The only reason they haven't killed more Palestinians is that they can't get away with it with glare of world publicity on them

Ever since Israel was created Palestinians have been under threat of expulsion or removal.

This is just a continuation of what started in 48.

 

[Idris2002]

So anyone who doesn't fully support national self determination for Kurds, Sikhs, Welsh, Cornish, Bretons, Quebecois, Basques, Uighurs, Chechens etc etc etc is racist. Well, that is a position which I can understand, but how many Zionists do you hear giving vent to this position?

In how many cases would exercising the right to national self-determination involve crimes against another people of the kind we're seeing in Gaza?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

To remain consistent with their own lies, the capture and destruction of Al Shifa hospital counts as a decisive blow against Hamas's military capabilities.

They are going to blow up the entire complex, aren't they?

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Apparently Israel have better intelligence forces than the US and the UK so I find it strange as well that they didn't do any due diligence on the intel. With their intel, that would have been the better way to go after Hamas rather than bomb and kill innocent people in Gaza.

JJ

Sadly, if the planbiscethnic cleansing,

With this whole conflict which is awful it is hard what to believe and what not to believe as there is so much propaganda from all sides. This is so so tragic.

no it is not hard to know the IDF are genocidal liars.
But, anyway, glad to see you back Platinum Sage (not)

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Good question being asked right now on Al Jazeera. Why have the Israelis forcibly evacuated Al-Shifa hospital? Are they going to blow the whole thing up? Is this part of a plan to make the Gaza Strip entirely unfit for human habitation? And perhaps also a spectacular symbolic end to this stage in their 'conquest' of Gaza by destroying the supposed headquarters of Hamas (at the same time, of course, conveniently destroying the evidence that it was no such thing).

The answer is yes

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I think they are intentionally removing infrastructure like hospitals from northern Gaza to make it impossible to come back.

What government and IDF have been doing is ethnic cleansing.

The only reason they haven't killed more Palestinians is that they can't get away with it with glare of world publicity on them

Ever since Israel was created Palestinians have been under threat of expulsion or removal.

This is just a continuation of what started in 48.

100% correct

 

[zahir]

Does anyone expect that the people displaced from northern Gaza will ever be allowed back?

 

[Idris2002]

Does anyone expect that the people displaced from northern Gaza will ever be allowed back?

Not for a very long time.

 

[Raheem]

Does anyone expect that the people displaced from northern Gaza will ever be allowed back?

There's a precedent in the Bible where a population got displaced from Palestine to Egypt and then went back after 430 years.

 

[ska invita]

I think they are intentionally removing infrastructure like hospitals from northern Gaza to make it impossible to come back .

Absolutely... Saw video of a school massacre today to be filed similarly

Over 200 killed supposedly according to later reports, video makes that seem plausible, it was used as a shelter

Won't spoiler it as I think Twitter has done so

Many killed in Israeli attacks on two schools in northern Gaza

Hundreds of Palestinians sought shelter at schools, survivors use shovels and hands to extricate people from rubble.

www.google.co.uk

Is this being reported on British TV?

 

[weltweit]

Grim, that is what the IDF do ..

 

[mojo pixy]

There's a precedent in the Bible where a population got displaced from Palestine to Egypt and then went back after 430 years.

Ditto Babylon

 

[Gramsci]

On Israeli state and lying.

More from An Army like No Other

The border wars of 1950s and rise of Moshe Dayan as head of army led to lying becoming normalised part of Israeli political/ military discourse.

Raids on Palestinian refugee camps continued in early 1950s. The border wars. Done in fashion of Orde Wingate Special Night Squads of the 30s. Some IDF had been involved in them

This led to a few massacres of Palestinian civilians. Which was covered up. Israel public and international public/ government were bare faced lied to. David Ben Gurion ( a leader of ethnic cleansing in 48) was expert at this.

In 50s Israel state found an ally in France who supplied them with up to date military equipment. Moshe Dayan took over leadership of army. Him and Ben Gurion were of like mind.

Moshe Dayan was eager for his soldiers to gain experience by raids. Also IDF cadre were keen to earn their spurs.

For Moshe Dayan militarily Israel had to be pro active.

This was risky strategy.

For Moshe Dayan going on offensive was necessary in country with no strategic depth. ( I assume this means it's not vast country like Russia.).

Anyway some of the things they were doing were questionable even by Israeli standards.

Overall in 50s developed a culture of lying that can be seen now in Gaza.

Page 182

By the early 1950s, lying about its own activities had become systemic in Israel. One need not take a moralistic line about such lies—most states lie about their real intentions, as well as the exact details of covert actions. In the case of Israel during the 1950s, lying became so normalized as to form a pattern, and lies were used to placate not just the overseas audience, but also the Israeli population. It really started biting when members of the cabinet started lying to one another, and army commanders lied to ministers and to one another. A web of lies replaced normal discourse, which became polluted by half-truths, outright lies, and preposterous inventions.

Example of massacre they had to lie about as it was so bad:

Page 180

attack on the village of Qibya in 1953, part of the “educational” strikes Dayan so valued. In the attack, led by the already infamous Ariel Sharon, commander of Unit 101, more than seventy villagers were murdered

David Ben Gurion tried to blame it on local Jewish settlers. And push blame away from government and IDF. Really nice piece of work Ben Gurion.

 

[Petcha]

Heard a (white) British doctor who knows that hospital very well, has spent years working there. Said he and his colleagues had never noticed this Hamas command centre despite doing long hours there every day. Also quite rightly pointed out how bizarre it was that one of the few images of weapons released by the Israelis featured pictures of guns and ammo right next to an MRI machine. Which is basically a massive fucking magnet. Why would you store metal weapons next to that.

 

[Sue]

Heard a (white) British doctor who knows that hospital very well...

Why exactly is that relevant?

 

[Petcha]

Why exactly is that relevant?

Because all the previous doctors who know Gaza well I've seen being interviewed have been native Gazans. And that's what you took out of that?

 

[Sue]

Because all the previous doctors who know Gaza well I've seen being interviewed have been native Gazans.

And?

And that's what you took out of that?

Yes.

 

[andysays]

Because all the previous doctors who know Gaza well I've seen being interviewed have been native Gazans. And that's what you took out of that?

So what you're suggesting is we can't necessarily believe these non-white native Gazans, but we can believe this guy because he's a white Brit and therefore more reliable?

Sounds fine to me, gabi; can't imagine how anyone could have a problem with that...

 

[oryx]

Absolutely... Saw video of a school massacre today to be filed similarly

Over 200 killed supposedly according to later reports, video makes that seem plausible, it was used as a shelter

Won't spoiler it as I think Twitter has done so

Many killed in Israeli attacks on two schools in northern Gaza

Hundreds of Palestinians sought shelter at schools, survivors use shovels and hands to extricate people from rubble.

www.google.co.uk

Is this being reported on British TV?

Being reported on BBC website. Yet again, no words.

BBC Verify has geolocated footage to al-Fakhoura school in Jabalia that shows many people - including women and children - with severe injuries or lying motionless on the floor in different parts of the building.
There are more than 20 such casualties visible in the footage, and around half of these are seen in one particular room on the ground floor, which also shows signs of considerable damage.
The head of the United Nations agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA) Philippe Lazzarini said he had seen "horrifying images and footage of scores of people killed and injured" in one of his agency's schools "sheltering thousands of displaced".

 

[teqniq]

Saw this earlier. So they are all guilty eh? Justifying collective punishment:



Earlier I notice other posters speculating that the forced evacuation of Al-Shifa hospital signifies it's imminent demolition by the IDF. On seeing the news of this on Twitter, it was one of my first thoughts.

 

[PTK]

I think this is to blanket a view

I certainly think anti semitism has been "weaponised" to get rid of left in Labour party. Including getting rid of any policies on economy etc that the right didn't like. In that way it was used cynical. Used in factional fight with left over politics that were not all about Palestine.

However some politicians and groups like Jewish Labour movement genuinely think that supporting a ceasefire is de facto supporting Hamas.

JLM / British Board of deputies both oppose ceasefire. Been clear on that

Politicians like Steve Reed and Starmer do I think also genuinely believe that supporting Israel in way they do is showing they aren't anti Semitic.

Looking at IHRA definition and examples saying that Israel is a racist state against Palestinians is tantamount to anti semitism.

As is calling for a one state solution. As this is denying Jews right to national self determination.

I started reading the history ( before the present conflict) as wanted make my own mind up. Been reading about British Empire before and Mandate came up with the Arab Revolt.

So no I don't think it's all cynical. There are different views. And there isn't going to be a meetings of minds on this.

What I do think is cynical is when politicians go on about a two state solution. They now full well it's not going to be two equal states

Jews as a whole in the world are not a nation, and therefore cannot have the right to self-determination.

Isrelis Jews are a nation, and so are Palestinian Arabs. As they are so intertwined, then self-determination for one would be at the expense of the the other. This is why I think that a singel bi-national state is the only solution.

 

[weltweit]

First they said civilians should evacuate Gaza city and move to the south. Then they destroyed the north. Now they say to the people in the south they should evacuate for their safety, but where should they go now? Egypt perhaps?