Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[teqniq]

It's called ethnic cleansing with a bit of genocide thrown in for good measure. weltweit

 

[weltweit]

It's called ethnic cleansing with a bit of genocide thrown in for good measure. weltweit

It is pretty sickening isn't it ..

 

[The39thStep]

Palestine demo Lisbon . There were also demonstrations in other cities today.

 

[ska invita]

Useful resource thread. Tagging post with the word Genocide

 

[Gramsci]

This isn't the first time Israel has tried to get Gaza

An Army like no Other quotes Haaretz article from 9th December 2016

An Army Like No Other

The Israeli army, officially named the Israel Defence Forces (IDF), was established in 1948 by David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, who believed that ‘the whole nation is the army’. In his mind, the IDF was to be an army like no other. It was the instrument that might transform a...

www.versobooks.com

Then-Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion was in euphoria on November 6, 1956, immediately after the Sinai Campaign in which Israel quadrupled the territory under its control. In a letter to then-IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Dayan, Ben-Gurion proclaimed the beginning of the third kingdom of Israel.

Classified documents from that era that were viewed by Haaretz show how close Israel was to applying Israeli law to the territories of Sinai and the Gaza Strip, which would have amounted to Israel’s de facto annexation of those territories, according to senior public figures at the time … The archived documents … indicate a clear intent to take over territories captured in the 1956 war, known as the Operation Kadesh … According to the papers, the state attorney general at the time, Haim Cohen, compiled a draft declaration applying Israeli law to occupied territories for Ben-Gurion.

Page 197.

Article

How Israel gave up the idea of annexing Sinia and Gaza

Haaretz 9th December 2016.

Gave up in sense that this was unfinished business. Now they are finishing the job they could not in 56.

This was during the failed war with Egypt over the canal. Israel allied with French and British.

Saw it as opportunity to expand Israel by supporting imperialism of British and French against a anti colonial Egypt under Nasser.

This helped cement Israel as supporting imperial powers. Moved to have close relationship with USA after this

Above shows the Israeli state never stopped wanting to get whole of the old mandate territory.

Failed first time around but the idea never went away

 

[Gramsci]

Must say there is an awful lot about history of Gaza that doesn't make it to mainstream news.

The context.

This didn't start with Hamas attack on 7th October.

If I was a Palestinian and knew this history I might see the Hamas attack in different light

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

It isn't a simple question. Hamas has two separate sections. A political wing that is called Hamas that does political and welfare activities mostly in Gaza, and a paramilitary wing that is called the Al Qassam Brigades that organises a mix of legitimate resistance to occupation and outright terrorism in both Gaza and the West Bank. So it just isn't a simple question if you actually know what Hamas is comprised of and all of what it does. The way that bastards such as Piers Morgan operate is that any attempt to introduce complexity beyond "everything covered by this label is bad and everything this other label applies to is good". Which is simple, easy to understand, and absolutely nothing to do with anything that happens on Planet Earth. Playing the game their way by trying to twist their simplistic mis-characterisations into a narrative that suits you just leads to adding to the level of fantasy over reality. Trying to stick to the complex realities doesn't look great at the time, but is better than twisting the truths for a short term win only to end up being hammered with it later when people see through the spin.

Exactly. It's like Sinn Fein and the IRA.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Must say there is an awful lot about history of Gaza that doesn't make it to mainstream news.

The context.

This didn't start with Hamas attack on 7th October.

If I was a Palestinian and knew this history I might see the Hamas attack in different light

I'm fed up arguing with people on FB who say there was a ceasefire prior to October 7th.

 

[Serge Forward]

Speaking as someone whose son is third generation holocaust survivor, fuck Israel, fuck the IDF, fuck Netanyahu and fuck all the far right Zionist cunts.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Speaking as someone whose son is third generation holocaust survivor, fuck Israel, fuck the IDF, fuck Netanyahu and fuck all the far right Zionist cunts.

Neatly put.

 

[Sue]

Speaking as someone whose son is third generation holocaust survivor,

Speaking as someone with no connection to Holocaust survivors (and these 'credentials' don't really feel relevant here):

fuck Israel, fuck the IDF, fuck Netanyahu and fuck all the far right Zionist cunts.

 

[xenon]

Speaking as someone whose son is third generation holocaust survivor, fuck Israel, fuck the IDF, fuck Netanyahu and fuck all the far right Zionist cunts.

Except no, not fuck Israel. Not all Israelis are behind this horror.

 

[Gramsci]

I was looking at the IHRA example of anti semitism.

Its this one I have problem with:

• Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Seeing what is happening in Gaza now and reading the history of Israel I disagree with this example.

Im not saying all Israelis are racist. It is not anyone's fault the country they are born in.

But is the State racist? Yes from its very inception.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I'd say it's pretty racist to imply that Jewish people's self determination is contingent upon the existence of a Jewish ethno-nationalist state.

I can't think of an example from history where an attempt to put people in the correct place for their ethnicity or culture has gone well. Quite a few examples where it has gone badly.

There are however examples where what seemed like insurmountable differences between groups of people have crumbled away in a very short space of time. That's the only way out. Even if the current Israeli government is able to drive out or murder everyone in Gaza and the West Bank, they will not rest there. Fascism is predicated on endless struggle, so a new enemy will be found one way or another. And with it more retaliation, more terrorism, more atrocities, more suffering. Even for the Israeli people, a ceasefire is the only hope.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Except no, not fuck Israel. Not all Israelis are behind this horror.

No, they're not. And the trauma that will come from moral, decent people realising what has been done in their name will be yet another atrocity all by itself.

 

[two sheds]

I was half dreading reading this, but what he says turns out somewhat reasonable

Jeremy Corbyn calls Hamas ‘terrorist group’ after previous demurral

Former Labour leader argues Hamas and Israel both guilty of targeting civilians, after he avoided term in TV interview

www.theguardian.com

The former Labour leader has written an article accusing the Israeli army of being guilty of “acts of terror too”, arguing that the comparison was necessary because Israel had killed thousands of children in strikes on Gaza in retaliation for Hamas’s attacks.

His opinion piece in the leftwing Tribune magazine comes a day after the leader of the opposition, Keir Starmer, said Corbyn’s “days as a Labour MP” were over after the MP had repeatedly declined to call Hamas a terrorist organisation in an interview with Piers Morgan.

Corbyn wrote that he “deplore[d] the targeting of all civilians”, including Hamas’s killing of about 1,200 people in Israel on 7 October.

The MP for Islington North added: “If we understand terrorism to describe the indiscriminate killing of civilians, in breach of international law, then of course Hamas is a terrorist group.

“The targeting of hospitals, refugee camps and so-called safe zones by the Israeli army are acts of terror too; and the killing of more than 11,000 people, half of whom are children, cannot possibly be understood as acts of self-defence.

“We should not entertain questions from those who have no interest in applying this basic consistency.”

In his Tribune article, he wrote: “Ultimately, we do not just have a responsibility to end the bloodshed.

“We have a responsibility to stop bloodthirsty voices from dictating the terms of debate, and to push back against cynical attempts to distract us from our urgent goal: bringing about an immediate ceasefire.”

 

[spring-peeper]

Except no, not fuck Israel. Not all Israelis are behind this horror.

Saw somewhere (maybe here) an interview that the woman said that all Palestinians were Hamas and there is no civilian lose of life. The people elected Hamas, so they are all Hamas.

With that type of logic, Israel elected the current government, so all Israelis are support the genocide devastation actions of their government.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

Saw somewhere (maybe here) an interview that the woman said that all Palestinians were Hamas and there is no civilian lose of life. The people elected Hamas, so they are all Hamas.

With that type of logic, Israel elected the current government, so all Israelis are support the genocide devastation actions of their government.

Only in the same way that everyone in the UK is responsible for the deaths of disabled benefit claimants due to DWP sanctions, or the drowned refugees in the Mediterranean etc. The label is not the thing.

 

[_Russ_]

It seemed odd that Israel's intelligence agencies didn't seem to know about Hamas preparations for their assault on Israel on 7th October.

But the Hamas assault has rather conveniently allowed Netanyahu to play the war leader again and to invade Gaza and attempt to completely destroy Hamas or even to go further.

Is it possible Israel's intelligence did know about Hamas preparations but underestimated its force, and that people like Netanyahu kept schtum because he wanted the excuse to invade?

I don't know the workings of Israel government agencies, would it even be possible to keep a secret like that?

Israel doesn't need to keep all its shit secret it simply needs to lie and deny, even in the face of evidence to the contrary the members of the international community with most power and influence will always accept the lie and facilitate it.
A nation with a significant Nuclear arsenal that is actually allowed to pretend it hasn't......Its a paralell reality.

 

[krtek a houby]

Israel doesn't need to keep all its shit secret it simply needs to lie and deny, even in the face of evidence to the contrary the members of the international community with most power and influence will always accept the lie and facilitate it.
A nation with a significant Nuclear arsenal that is actually allowed to pretend it hasn't......Its a paralell reality.

Doubling down, you say

 

[andysays]

Only in the same way that everyone in the UK is responsible for the deaths of disabled benefit claimants due to DWP sanctions, or the drowned refugees in the Mediterranean etc. The label is not the thing.

I think that's the point spring-peeper is making, that the "logic" behind the collective punishment is utterly wrong.

 

[Serge Forward]

Except no, not fuck Israel. Not all Israelis are behind this horror.

I didn't say all Israelis though, did I.

 

[teqniq]

Please watch:

 

[krtek a houby]

Powerful, powerful stuff. And a rare twitter thing that deserves amplification.

 

[The39thStep]

Saw somewhere (maybe here) an interview that the woman said that all Palestinians were Hamas and there is no civilian lose of life. The people elected Hamas, so they are all Hamas.

With that type of logic, Israel elected the current government, so all Israelis are support the genocide devastation actions of their government.

Various Baltic states said the same about Russian citizens. Can't remember if it was echoed here

 

[agricola]

Meanwhile, thousands of miles from the front:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/yair-netanyahu-shares-posts-casting-blame-for-oct-7-on-courts-security-services/

 

[teqniq]

Analysis. Netenhayu doesn't care about the hostages (something that I have thought for some time):

Thread by @iyad_elbaghdadi on Thread Reader App

@iyad_elbaghdadi: Whenever I tweet about the immense suffering being inflicted on Gaza, I get replies from pro-Israel accounts demanding that Hamas release the hostages. Here's a quick rundown of what's happening on...…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[teqniq]

WHO leads very high-risk joint humanitarian mission to Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza

 

[Gramsci]

I was half dreading reading this, but what he says turns out somewhat reasonable

Jeremy Corbyn calls Hamas ‘terrorist group’ after previous demurral

Former Labour leader argues Hamas and Israel both guilty of targeting civilians, after he avoided term in TV interview

www.theguardian.com

Here is the Tribune article

Jeremy Corbyn: ‘Peace Is Hard but Possible’

Our duty is to stop bloodthirsty voices from dictating the debate and to resist cynical attempts to distract us from our urgent goal: bringing about an immediate Gaza ceasefire.

tribunemag.co.uk

Must say Tribune ( the magazine of the Socialist Campaign Group) are pushing it a bit publishing Corbyn. Think they have been emboldened by the mass protests for a ceasefire.

Yes it is a good article.

Him being accused of not condemning Hamas on Piers show. I have not watched that but these continual attacks on Corbyn are appalling imo. Hes been maligned and treated as a political pariah

His Tribune article has links to where he condemned Hamas attack.



And

The ICC must investigate the crime of genocide in Gaza

We need a ceasefire. The existence of the Palestinian people is at stake.

www.aljazeera.com

The attack by Hamas, which killed 1,400 Israelis and took 200 hostages, was utterly appalling and must be condemned. The victims and hostages are young people who wanted to listen to music. They are nieces and nephews. They are jewellery designers. They are factory workers. They are peace campaigners. The pain and anguish that their families feel will last forever.

The ICC should not just investigate the crime of genocide, but every single war crime committed by all parties over the past month

What he actually says on record rather than the media assuming what he thinks does sound reasonable.

What he actually thinks is a measured response.

But that does not make headlines.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Him being accused of not condemning Hamas on Piers show. I have not watched that but these continual attacks on Corbyn are appalling imo. Hes been maligned and treated as a political pariah

Haven't seen it but knowing Morgan I'd assume it was more a case of Corbyn not letting himself be derailed by endless, 'yeah but Hamas are evil though right?' whataboutery.

In any case Corbyn is an idiot for going on Morgan's show in the first place.