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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

I emailed Keir Starmer, and receiced a reply from his office, but it does not address my points and is not worth posting.
This is what I received today. Assume yours is the same.

Thank you for your email to Keir Starmer MP in relation to Israel and Gaza. At this point in time, Keir is receiving an extremely high volume of correspondence, so he has asked me to respond on his behalf. I’m very sorry for the delay in getting back to you.


I can confirm your strong views, arguments and observations have been duly noted and shared with the relevant policy teams.



Understandably, Keir’s office has been inundated with emails on the conflict in Israel & Gaza. We know this is a challenging time for many, with communities across the UK shaken by the ongoing events in the Middle East. Keir and the entire office would like to share our deepest sympathies for those who have friends and loved ones caught up in the conflict.

While our office is unable to reply to each individual email, Keir is keen to provide you with clarity on Labour’s position.

Families are grieving, across Israel and Gaza, and here in the UK. Keir knows this is a terrifying and distressing time for everyone.

Keir is concerned about the impact on communities here in Britain. We stand against the worrying rise in Islamophobia and against the antisemitic abuse, threats and assaults that we have seen on British streets. Labour has met with both Tell Mama and Community Security Trust (CST) and we urge anyone who has experienced Islamophobic or antisemitic attacks to report them to the police or to these anti-hate crime organisations. You can find links for these organisations at the end of this email.

At every stage during this crisis, Keir’s approach has been driven by the need to respond to the two immediate tragedies. Hamas’s appalling terrorism against Israel on 7 October led to the darkest day in Jewish history since the Holocaust, while the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza is playing out on an unimaginable scale, with thousands of civilians dead, streets flattened and more than a million people displaced. Every loss of life in this conflict is a tragedy.

We must recognise that Israel was subject to an unimaginable terrorist attack. They have the right to go after the terrorists who carried out the attacks and get their hostages back, but this is not a blank cheque. Our position has always been that Israel must submit to the rules of international law.

It’s clear that the amount of aid and essential utilities getting into Gaza is completely insufficient to meet the humanitarian emergency on the ground. That’s why we have repeatedly said that we have to get food, water, electricity, medicine and fuel into Gaza, with many more aid trucks across the Rafah crossing. And it is why we are calling for pauses in the fighting for clear and specific humanitarian purposes, and which must start immediately.
Labour is also calling for a coordinated Disasters Emergency Committee (DEC) fund appeal with matched government funding to provide essential humanitarian emergency aid in Gaza, and to create a longer-term fund for its reconstruction.

While Keir understands calls for a ceasefire, at this stage, he does not believe that is the correct position now. First, a ceasefire always freezes any conflict in the state where it currently lies. At this point, that would leave Hamas with the infrastructure and the capability to carry out the sort of attack we saw on October the 7th. Second, calling for immediate pauses in fighting for clear and specific humanitarian purposes is the only credible approach that has any chance of achieving what we all want to see in Gaza; the urgent alleviation of Palestinian suffering.

Over time, the facts on the ground will inevitably change in relation to both hostages being rescued and Hamas’s capabilities. And we must move to a cessation of fighting as quickly as possible.

The reality is that neither the long-term security of Israel nor long-term justice for Palestine can be delivered by bombs and bullets. In the long term, there can only be a political solution to this crisis which is why we need to restart the hard work of talks for a two-state solution: a viable Palestinian state alongside a safe and secure Israel.

For too long, the international community has put the Israeli-Palestinian conflict into the ‘too difficult’ box and Britain, on this essential issue, has lost its way. It is intolerable that no government has put in sustained effort towards a two-state solution since New Labour. Recent Conservative governments have, at times, been dangerously irresponsible, leaving the two-state solution out of their recent UK-Israel road map and announcing plans to move the UK embassy to Jerusalem.

The task will be hard and Britain’s influence in the region has limits, but Labour recognises Britain’s historical responsibility. We will appoint a new special envoy dedicated to Middle East peace and recharge diplomacy with all parties in the region to gain maximum influence. Labour will work with international partners towards the recognition of a Palestinian state as part of a negotiated, just and lasting peace.

You can watch Keir’s speech at Chatham House on 31 October setting out his position here, and read his recent statements and questions in Parliament on this matter here. You can also watch Keir clarifying remarks recently made on LBC here.

Thank you, once again, for getting in touch. If you feel you need any further support, please do not hesitate to reach out.

Best wishes,



Alistair

Membership Services and Correspondence

The Labour Party
 
Utter bullshit. Gaza gets razed to the ground and Israel becomes a priah. For how long? How many dead Palestinians is Israel being kicked off the Eurovision song contest worth?
No one who could change things is prepared to.
Even if the UK demanded a cease fire. Would Israel even listen till it thinks it got enough vengeance?
He means the Israel that exists in his head can lose, and he will no longer be able to "feel good about himself".
 
This is what I received today. Assume yours is the same.

Thank you for your email to Keir Starmer MP in relation to Israel and Gaza. At this point in time, Keir is receiving an extremely high volume of correspondence, so he has asked me to respond on his behalf. I’m very sorry for the delay in getting back to you.


I can confirm your strong views, arguments and observations have been duly noted and shared with the relevant policy teams.



Understandably, Keir’s office has been inundated with emails on the conflict in Israel & Gaza. We know this is a challenging time for many, with communities across the UK shaken by the ongoing events in the Middle East. Keir and the entire office would like to share our deepest sympathies for those who have friends and loved ones caught up in the conflict.

While our office is unable to reply to each individual email, Keir is keen to provide you with clarity on Labour’s position.

Families are grieving, across Israel and Gaza, and here in the UK. Keir knows this is a terrifying and distressing time for everyone.

Keir is concerned about the impact on communities here in Britain. We stand against the worrying rise in Islamophobia and against the antisemitic abuse, threats and assaults that we have seen on British streets. Labour has met with both Tell Mama and Community Security Trust (CST) and we urge anyone who has experienced Islamophobic or antisemitic attacks to report them to the police or to these anti-hate crime organisations. You can find links for these organisations at the end of this email.

At every stage during this crisis, Keir’s approach has been driven by the need to respond to the two immediate tragedies. Hamas’s appalling terrorism against Israel on 7 October led to the darkest day in Jewish history since the Holocaust, while the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza is playing out on an unimaginable scale, with thousands of civilians dead, streets flattened and more than a million people displaced. Every loss of life in this conflict is a tragedy.

We must recognise that Israel was subject to an unimaginable terrorist attack. They have the right to go after the terrorists who carried out the attacks and get their hostages back, but this is not a blank cheque. Our position has always been that Israel must submit to the rules of international law.

It’s clear that the amount of aid and essential utilities getting into Gaza is completely insufficient to meet the humanitarian emergency on the ground. That’s why we have repeatedly said that we have to get food, water, electricity, medicine and fuel into Gaza, with many more aid trucks across the Rafah crossing. And it is why we are calling for pauses in the fighting for clear and specific humanitarian purposes, and which must start immediately.
Labour is also calling for a coordinated Disasters Emergency Committee (DEC) fund appeal with matched government funding to provide essential humanitarian emergency aid in Gaza, and to create a longer-term fund for its reconstruction.

While Keir understands calls for a ceasefire, at this stage, he does not believe that is the correct position now. First, a ceasefire always freezes any conflict in the state where it currently lies. At this point, that would leave Hamas with the infrastructure and the capability to carry out the sort of attack we saw on October the 7th. Second, calling for immediate pauses in fighting for clear and specific humanitarian purposes is the only credible approach that has any chance of achieving what we all want to see in Gaza; the urgent alleviation of Palestinian suffering.

Over time, the facts on the ground will inevitably change in relation to both hostages being rescued and Hamas’s capabilities. And we must move to a cessation of fighting as quickly as possible.

The reality is that neither the long-term security of Israel nor long-term justice for Palestine can be delivered by bombs and bullets. In the long term, there can only be a political solution to this crisis which is why we need to restart the hard work of talks for a two-state solution: a viable Palestinian state alongside a safe and secure Israel.

For too long, the international community has put the Israeli-Palestinian conflict into the ‘too difficult’ box and Britain, on this essential issue, has lost its way. It is intolerable that no government has put in sustained effort towards a two-state solution since New Labour. Recent Conservative governments have, at times, been dangerously irresponsible, leaving the two-state solution out of their recent UK-Israel road map and announcing plans to move the UK embassy to Jerusalem.

The task will be hard and Britain’s influence in the region has limits, but Labour recognises Britain’s historical responsibility. We will appoint a new special envoy dedicated to Middle East peace and recharge diplomacy with all parties in the region to gain maximum influence. Labour will work with international partners towards the recognition of a Palestinian state as part of a negotiated, just and lasting peace.

You can watch Keir’s speech at Chatham House on 31 October setting out his position here, and read his recent statements and questions in Parliament on this matter here. You can also watch Keir clarifying remarks recently made on LBC here.

Thank you, once again, for getting in touch. If you feel you need any further support, please do not hesitate to reach out.

Best wishes,



Alistair

Membership Services and Correspondence

The Labour Party
Yes. The same reply. It annoyed me, because I had quoted Starmer's speech at Chatham House, and argued against his assertions.
 
In summary, Israel has the right to lay the Gaza Strip to waste because of the events of 7 October. And not for Starmer or anyone else to get in the way of that. In fact, the current atrocities are needed in order to avoid future atrocities!

He's right about one thing. Over time, the facts on the ground will change. The Israeli government is banking on it.

He's going to speak up just at the point that Israel is going to stop anyway.
 
I emailed Keir Starmer, and receiced a reply from his office, but it does not address my points and is not worth posting.
You were lucky. His constituents are complaing that they never get replies to emails or letters. I guess that's because they aren't sending him stuff he already has a pre-written reply to fob them off with.
 
This from leftwing Israeli (now London based) academic is useful regarding the state of Israeli opinion.


The remaining political centre and many Jewish Israeli liberals do not really know what “winning” means beyond the exertion of horrific violence to “destroy Hamas.”

Only a tiny segment of Israel’s Jewish society is refusing these forms of “winning” and are calling for an immediate ceasefire.
 
Utter bullshit. Gaza gets razed to the ground and Israel becomes a priah. For how long? How many dead Palestinians is Israel being kicked off the Eurovision song contest worth?
No one who could change things is prepared to.
Even if the UK demanded a cease fire. Would Israel even listen till it thinks it got enough vengeance?
There's a slightly different version of the same, in which Hamas have succeeded in shattering the Israeli illusion that they can sustainably ignore Gazans and treat them purely as a security threat. Although Palestinians have now to endure Israel's revenge, they will not be going back to the status quo.
 
In summary, Israel has the right to lay the Gaza Strip to waste because of the events of 7 October. And not for Starmer or anyone else to get in the way of that. In fact, the current atrocities are needed in order to avoid future atrocities!

He's right about one thing. Over time, the facts on the ground will change. The Israeli government is banking on it.

He's going to speak up just at the point that Israel is going to stop anyway.
Among other things, I wrote the following in my letter to Starmer:

"In your speech at Chatham House on 31 October you argued against a ceasefire on the grounds that Hamas would retain “the infrastructure and the capability to carry out the sort of attack we saw on October the 7th” and that it would still hold its hostages.

You seem to be advocating a ceasefire once the armed forces of the state of Israel have rendered the military wing of Hamas incapable of repeating an attack on the scale of that of 7 October.

Do you actually believe that, after one month of massive bombardment, the military wing of Hamas still possesses the ability to launch another attack on the scale of 7 October?

If the bombardment that has led to 10,000 deaths has not significantly diminished the capability of the military wing of Hamas, then how many deaths will it take, do you suppose, for the State of Israel to achieve the objective that you advocate?

The violent destruction of Hamas would not bring long-term peace. It would sow the seeds for more violence in the future. As you put it in your speech “the consequences will last for decades and the trauma might never fade” and “so often the trauma of the present, leads directly to the tragedy of the future.”"
 
Among other things, I wrote the following in my letter to Starmer:

"In your speech at Chatham House on 31 October you argued against a ceasefire on the grounds that Hamas would retain “the infrastructure and the capability to carry out the sort of attack we saw on October the 7th” and that it would still hold its hostages.

You seem to be advocating a ceasefire once the armed forces of the state of Israel have rendered the military wing of Hamas incapable of repeating an attack on the scale of that of 7 October.

Do you actually believe that, after one month of massive bombardment, the military wing of Hamas still possesses the ability to launch another attack on the scale of 7 October?

If the bombardment that has led to 10,000 deaths has not significantly diminished the capability of the military wing of Hamas, then how many deaths will it take, do you suppose, for the State of Israel to achieve the objective that you advocate?

The violent destruction of Hamas would not bring long-term peace. It would sow the seeds for more violence in the future. As you put it in your speech “the consequences will last for decades and the trauma might never fade” and “so often the trauma of the present, leads directly to the tragedy of the future.”"
They didn't even read it. (Starmer no doubt didn't even see it.) 'Letter complaining about Palestine'. Add it to the pile. They all receive the same response.
 

Ask your MP to sign Zarah & Apsana's #CeasefireNow amendment to the King's Speech​

 

ADD YOUR NAME: Call on Labour's leadership to back an immediate ceasefire in Israel & Palestine.​

 
Still fuming after disgraceful Lies At One Radio 4 today. While war crimes apologist Regev treated deferentially, Palestinian red creacent woman talked over, and the piece of shit masquerading as a journalist ignored her comment that Hamas have offered free access to all hospitals by international observers to ascertain there are no Hamas fighters lurking therein. How about we launch a crowdfunder to send Lammy Farage Douglas Murray and Braverman to be the UK delegation? Would only need the outward fare as there are combined reduced carriage rates for bodybags….
 
Still fuming after disgraceful Lies At One Radio 4 today. While war crimes apologist Regev treated deferentially, Palestinian red creacent woman talked over, and the piece of shit masquerading as a journalist ignored her comment that Hamas have offered free access to all hospitals by international observers to ascertain there are no Hamas fighters lurking therein. How about we launch a crowdfunder to send Lammy Farage Douglas Murray and Braverman to be the UK delegation? Would only need the outward fare as there are combined reduced carriage rates for bodybags….
Yes, I thought that she did very well in standing up to the BBC person.
 
Interesting thread about how Bibi is basically using the Gaza war as a continuation of the political confrontation that began with his Israeli opponents over the judicial reform:



Within Zionism there are left and right versions.

Labour Zionism is "left" in a Zionist way.

David Ben Gurion for example was a Labour Zionist.

And was one of the main leaders involved in the expulsion of Palestinians -The Nakba.

Which if one reads Ilan Pappe book the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine makes him a war criminal.

In Israel left can mean different things to what one might think looking at it historically

Labour Zionism Ben Gurion version was one that was dominant for decades after Israel was founded. With Zionist Labour organisations - Histadrut being important part of this.

Both Labour Zionism ( I see the twitter used an old photo) and right Zionism were predicated on expulsion of Palestinians.

And yes there were big divisions in Zionist movement. But for Palestinians this was not the issue. As both wanted a Zionist state.
 
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Among other things, I wrote the following in my letter to Starmer:

"In your speech at Chatham House on 31 October you argued against a ceasefire on the grounds that Hamas would retain “the infrastructure and the capability to carry out the sort of attack we saw on October the 7th” and that it would still hold its hostages.

You seem to be advocating a ceasefire once the armed forces of the state of Israel have rendered the military wing of Hamas incapable of repeating an attack on the scale of that of 7 October.

Do you actually believe that, after one month of massive bombardment, the military wing of Hamas still possesses the ability to launch another attack on the scale of 7 October?

If the bombardment that has led to 10,000 deaths has not significantly diminished the capability of the military wing of Hamas, then how many deaths will it take, do you suppose, for the State of Israel to achieve the objective that you advocate?

The violent destruction of Hamas would not bring long-term peace. It would sow the seeds for more violence in the future. As you put it in your speech “the consequences will last for decades and the trauma might never fade” and “so often the trauma of the present, leads directly to the tragedy of the future.”"

You wrote a good letter. Made good points.
 
Yeah, Starmer is reduced to absurd ideas, such as the danger that Hamas could do something like 7 October again. It's not just the massive bombardment of the last month. Israel is paying increased attention to its fence around Gaza, which is now rather heavily guarded! There's no possible way Hamas could do that again even if they were still at their 7 October capabilities. They caught Israel off-guard.

The intellectual gymnastics of a former human rights lawyer in the name of winning power. Psychopaths in suits. :(
 
This is what I received today. Assume yours is the same.

Thank you for your email to Keir Starmer MP in relation to Israel and Gaza. At this point in time, Keir is receiving an extremely high volume of correspondence, so he has asked me to respond on his behalf. I’m very sorry for the delay in getting back to you.


I can confirm your strong views, arguments and observations have been duly noted and shared with the relevant policy teams.



Understandably, Keir’s office has been inundated with emails on the conflict in Israel & Gaza. We know this is a challenging time for many, with communities across the UK shaken by the ongoing events in the Middle East. Keir and the entire office would like to share our deepest sympathies for those who have friends and loved ones caught up in the conflict.

While our office is unable to reply to each individual email, Keir is keen to provide you with clarity on Labour’s position.

Families are grieving, across Israel and Gaza, and here in the UK. Keir knows this is a terrifying and distressing time for everyone.

Keir is concerned about the impact on communities here in Britain. We stand against the worrying rise in Islamophobia and against the antisemitic abuse, threats and assaults that we have seen on British streets. Labour has met with both Tell Mama and Community Security Trust (CST) and we urge anyone who has experienced Islamophobic or antisemitic attacks to report them to the police or to these anti-hate crime organisations. You can find links for these organisations at the end of this email.

At every stage during this crisis, Keir’s approach has been driven by the need to respond to the two immediate tragedies. Hamas’s appalling terrorism against Israel on 7 October led to the darkest day in Jewish history since the Holocaust, while the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza is playing out on an unimaginable scale, with thousands of civilians dead, streets flattened and more than a million people displaced. Every loss of life in this conflict is a tragedy.

We must recognise that Israel was subject to an unimaginable terrorist attack. They have the right to go after the terrorists who carried out the attacks and get their hostages back, but this is not a blank cheque. Our position has always been that Israel must submit to the rules of international law.

It’s clear that the amount of aid and essential utilities getting into Gaza is completely insufficient to meet the humanitarian emergency on the ground. That’s why we have repeatedly said that we have to get food, water, electricity, medicine and fuel into Gaza, with many more aid trucks across the Rafah crossing. And it is why we are calling for pauses in the fighting for clear and specific humanitarian purposes, and which must start immediately.
Labour is also calling for a coordinated Disasters Emergency Committee (DEC) fund appeal with matched government funding to provide essential humanitarian emergency aid in Gaza, and to create a longer-term fund for its reconstruction.

While Keir understands calls for a ceasefire, at this stage, he does not believe that is the correct position now. First, a ceasefire always freezes any conflict in the state where it currently lies. At this point, that would leave Hamas with the infrastructure and the capability to carry out the sort of attack we saw on October the 7th. Second, calling for immediate pauses in fighting for clear and specific humanitarian purposes is the only credible approach that has any chance of achieving what we all want to see in Gaza; the urgent alleviation of Palestinian suffering.

Over time, the facts on the ground will inevitably change in relation to both hostages being rescued and Hamas’s capabilities. And we must move to a cessation of fighting as quickly as possible.

The reality is that neither the long-term security of Israel nor long-term justice for Palestine can be delivered by bombs and bullets. In the long term, there can only be a political solution to this crisis which is why we need to restart the hard work of talks for a two-state solution: a viable Palestinian state alongside a safe and secure Israel.

For too long, the international community has put the Israeli-Palestinian conflict into the ‘too difficult’ box and Britain, on this essential issue, has lost its way. It is intolerable that no government has put in sustained effort towards a two-state solution since New Labour. Recent Conservative governments have, at times, been dangerously irresponsible, leaving the two-state solution out of their recent UK-Israel road map and announcing plans to move the UK embassy to Jerusalem.

The task will be hard and Britain’s influence in the region has limits, but Labour recognises Britain’s historical responsibility. We will appoint a new special envoy dedicated to Middle East peace and recharge diplomacy with all parties in the region to gain maximum influence. Labour will work with international partners towards the recognition of a Palestinian state as part of a negotiated, just and lasting peace.

You can watch Keir’s speech at Chatham House on 31 October setting out his position here, and read his recent statements and questions in Parliament on this matter here. You can also watch Keir clarifying remarks recently made on LBC here.

Thank you, once again, for getting in touch. If you feel you need any further support, please do not hesitate to reach out.

Best wishes,



Alistair

Membership Services and Correspondence

The Labour Party

Interestingly there are significant difference between what Starmer says is Labour position and the email response I got from my MP Helen Hayes who is in the shadow Cabinet.

He calls it "Labours position" Sorry Labour does not have a position. At moment its every MP/Cllr for themselves as they are been inundated with emails. Plus big demos.

Starmers credibility with the commentariat is that he brought Labour back to a disciplined party that resonated with ordinary decent people and not the loony fringe.

Seems to me even loyal Labour MPs like mine are subtly breaking ranks. Socialist Campaign Group MPs who have attended demos against central leadership advice have not been disciplined.
 
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Yeah, Starmer is reduced to absurd ideas, such as the danger that Hamas could do something like 7 October again. It's not just the massive bombardment of the last month. Israel is paying increased attention to its fence around Gaza, which is now rather heavily guarded! There's no possible way Hamas could do that again even if they were still at their 7 October capabilities. They caught Israel off-guard.

The intellectual gymnastics of a former human rights lawyer in the name of winning power. Psychopaths in suits. :(

I mean there was widespread mainstream reporting that they'd been training openly for 2 years. How are they going to do that again? And presumably the same amount of time or more carefully stockpiling, smuggling, skimming etc. And this while Israeli authorities were clearly not paying that much attention (I know there are quibbles about intelligence warnings etc). And that's assuming you go back to the status quo ante, which is... quite unlikely (I mean it's impossible given the devastation, but in terms of wider multilateral involvement). The entire US government appears to be taking this position too. It's unsupportable. Just wtf?
 
Not much to say, sorry. :(





I was seeing this on Al Jazeera. Doctors talking about how the IDF are trying to push them to leave. By bombing on edges of hospital

That and the appalling conditions in the hospitals.

Sorry to say I had to turn it off.

It was doing my head in.

These people have endured years of blockade by Israel plus the history of them all being descended from those ethnically cleansed from other part of Palestine/ Israel.

Now this.

This is another Nakba.
 
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