Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The fo have been fucking useless for decades
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
- Start date
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Who are 'Transform,? If they're out to get Lammy, I guess they're different from the blandly synonymous 'Change UK'. Are they another one of those fractions coalition which incorporates the SWP?
Whenever I vote for a party on the left fringe, there are usually less than a hundred other people in the constituency that do the same. So, good luck to your aspirations of getting rid of Lammy, but don't get your expectations to high.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
So, a New Labour reboot.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Left of labour covers a multitude of sins
Eric Jarvis
Well-Known Member
Not the Swappies, they tried to go the TUSC route. Transform are Breakthrough, Left Unity, and the Liverpool Community Independents, trying to create a grassroots upwards democratic party by allowing anybody on the left in without having to abandon the groups they are already members of, at least until a democratic structure and constitution has been agreed. How well it will work remains to be seen. So far all the big egos who have attempted to join from a privileged position for themselves or their faction have been rebuffed (which is essentially why the SWP, TUSC and the Workers Party aren't yet part of it though a small number of their members are, all of those insisted that unless they could have a majority on the steering group they wouldn't join. So it's missing the usual suspects who wreck these things. Unfortunately it also seems to have a large majority who think the only thing that matters is forming the party and that actually winning elections will just magically happen when that is done without anyone actually having to get down to any hard graft on the street. However that is being worked on. My counterpart there has a track record of winning council seats for independent left councillors. There are also several former Labour Party constituency agents involved (all expelled from or resigned from the LP). It is most definitely not TUSC - The Sequel. I'm currently reserving judgement until after the discussions on the initial constitution and potential amendments are completed, and the founding conference has decided what form the new party will take. That's a matter of weeks away. It took me ten minutes in a room with three TUSC representatives to decide I wanted nothing to do with them, and I had given up on Respect before I had any contact with them, whereas Transform haven't come across as a definite complete waste of time in the 5 months I have been liaising with them. I might even join eventually.
johnwesley
Member
Interesting article in the NYT saying that Israel is facing an existential threat like no other in its history with the worst leader ever in history.
And for no reason this popped up in my YouTube feed from the 1960 movie Exodus - that saccharine version of history with Arabs airbrushed out must be how a lot of Israel's and Jews actually feel.
I Have Never Been to This Israel Before
And for no reason this popped up in my YouTube feed from the 1960 movie Exodus - that saccharine version of history with Arabs airbrushed out must be how a lot of Israel's and Jews actually feel.
YouSir
Retired from Urban
My only thought on Transform so far is that it took Breakthrough an age to lay their own foundations - lots of debates and discussions on structure/basic tenets etc. And then not long after they finished that they started all over again (presumably, some stuff may be recycled) with Transform. I'm not sure why a new name/front was necessary at all. But then the Left does love launching new 'unity' projects
Maybe it's just enthusiastic graphic designers, everyone loves making up cool new logos.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
I'm going to call this chapter of my memoirs "how I learned to stop worrying and love the one-state solution". A weak PA in Gaza and the West Bank would be too weak to defend itself, or assert any genuine sovereignty over its territory. Especially if it has to retain the ludicrous "swiss cheese" model of territory.
Of course, what's happened since last month has also effectively killed the one-state solution as well.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Very convincing piece from the Israeli left:
www.972mag.com
It says, basically, that the events of October 7th and after have changed everything, and foresees three possible ways forward, at least on the Israeli side.
One of those ways forward involves a new centre-left seeking agreement with the Palestinians: it even has a potential new leader, in the form of a soldier who spent October 7th rescuing people under fire. You can see why the author of this piece wants to pin his hopes (such as they are) on this option. In reality, the most likely outcome is that the ethnic cleansers will become king of the Israeli political hill, and ethnically cleanse the country of all inferior specimens.
So, this piece is convincing, but I'm not convinced. I'd still recommend it, though.
How October 7 has changed us all — and what it signals for our struggle
It can be hard to recognize a historic moment while living through it, but this time in Israel-Palestine, it’s plain for all to see.
www.972mag.com
It says, basically, that the events of October 7th and after have changed everything, and foresees three possible ways forward, at least on the Israeli side.
One of those ways forward involves a new centre-left seeking agreement with the Palestinians: it even has a potential new leader, in the form of a soldier who spent October 7th rescuing people under fire. You can see why the author of this piece wants to pin his hopes (such as they are) on this option. In reality, the most likely outcome is that the ethnic cleansers will become king of the Israeli political hill, and ethnically cleanse the country of all inferior specimens.
So, this piece is convincing, but I'm not convinced. I'd still recommend it, though.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
As for all the "Netanayhu is finished" stuff - don't you believe it! The immediate aftermath of October 7th was the Israelis last chance to get rid of him. Now he's going to dig in his heels, and he may well be in power until he dies.
This is a bad person you're dealing with here, the kind of guy who would have been Hamas if he'd been born on the other side. And he has the backing of all those in Israeli politics who appear to have broken with even the most basic democratic norms. . . .
www.972mag.com
"The crackdown is being led by right-wing Knesset members, who have wasted no time in seizing the opportunity presented by the state of emergency. It was reported last week that Justice Minister Yariv Levin and Interior Minister Moshe Arbel are even exploring the possibility of advancing legislation to revoke the citizenship or residency status of anyone who “engages in terrorism, supports terrorism, incites terrorism, or identifies with a terrorist act” — “terrorism,” of course, being an extremely broad term that can be weaponized against anything that even remotely expresses Palestinianness."
It won't just be Palestinian citizens of Israeli who will have their status revoked, if this goes through.
This is a bad person you're dealing with here, the kind of guy who would have been Hamas if he'd been born on the other side. And he has the backing of all those in Israeli politics who appear to have broken with even the most basic democratic norms. . . .
For Israeli leaders, every Palestinian citizen has a seat on the bus to Gaza
From racist incitement to police repression, Israel is punishing Arab citizens for the crime of belonging to the Palestinian people.
www.972mag.com
"The crackdown is being led by right-wing Knesset members, who have wasted no time in seizing the opportunity presented by the state of emergency. It was reported last week that Justice Minister Yariv Levin and Interior Minister Moshe Arbel are even exploring the possibility of advancing legislation to revoke the citizenship or residency status of anyone who “engages in terrorism, supports terrorism, incites terrorism, or identifies with a terrorist act” — “terrorism,” of course, being an extremely broad term that can be weaponized against anything that even remotely expresses Palestinianness."
It won't just be Palestinian citizens of Israeli who will have their status revoked, if this goes through.
ska invita
back on the other side
Considering they've already been effectively doing this for decades and making regular steady progress i can't see any other option than this continuing, but faster and more effectively. There appears to be insignificant push back from Israeli public, it seems to be a broadly popular position.
Neighbouring countries dont seem prepared to escalate to a full war to stop it happening...and that normalisation of relations that was on the cards just the other day suggests they're happy to look the other way anyway. The US clearly dont give a fuck, and few European politicians do either. Palestinian cause looks increasingly doomed to me.
....but predicting the future is a pointless game really...I say it more just to understand where the power lies now
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
I lived up that way for a few years. While not Zionist, they're also far from Bundist. This lot however, are from a more Bundist tradition.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Maybe he can hang on, maybe he can turn things to his advantage, but its complete bollocks to claim that was the last chance to get rid of him, far from it.
His position will be widely considered perilous 'when the war ends'. Obviously trying to get a complete view of that without knowing the details of how the war will end is unwise right now. But the extreme results seen in polling of attitudes and the destruction of his 'Mr Security' image, combined with the way the system will end up inquiring about the security failings that enabled the Hamas attacks, and the opportunism of his political opponents mean he is far from safe.
No matter how much the press and pundits wank on about certain people being 'great survivors', casting them as people to whom the normal rules of politics dont apply, people to whom no mud sticks, such people are not immune to events. We saw it with Trump, we saw it with Johnson. There are no guaranteed 'great survivors' in countries that feature aspects of democracy, no matter how far short of genuine, full democracy those countries fall.
ska invita
back on the other side
When will the war end though?
YouSir
Retired from Urban
Beyond the internal there's also the US who from what I've seen suggested (which I won't stand on as fact) are already assuming he'll be gone in due course and happily so from their perspective.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I've not got a crystal ball but the current assumption that he can stay in power for the war is likely based on the idea that the campaign wont drag on for years and years. If he tries to cling on during a much longer situation then there will probably be a reevaluation of when the moment to ditch him has arrived.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Once, to paraphrase Tacitus, they have created an ethnically-cleansed desert in Gaza: then they will call it peace.
ska invita
back on the other side
agree about crystal balls but he has himself said its going to be a quote "Long war", there is going to be an "indefinite" occupation, looks like a permanent war footing to me...reckon he can hold on a for a good long while yet....though looking it up next elections are three years away ... October 2026. I wouldn't be surprised if he makes it to that line to get on with his "lifes work"
YouSir
Retired from Urban
US is making noises about rejecting any attempt at an occupation. Not that they'll ever actually exert any material effort to stop Israel from doing it but willing to bet there are backroom talks going on with other potential Israeli leaders to build a consensus on Netenyahu going. If only for an alternative that'll quietly get on with settlement building and displacement rather than loud, posturing 'we'll be here for years' stuff.
Israel cannot reoccupy Gaza at end of conflict, says Antony Blinken
US secretary of state echoes White House line, while UK favours rule by ‘peace-loving Palestinian leadership’
elbows
Well-Known Member
Too many variables to predict. If I was forced to guess right now, I'd say he will be gone way sooner than that, especially due to the sheer scale of the political ramifications the Hamas attacks caused, and the way coalitions work in Israel.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I have serious doubts about that story's veracity.
ska invita
back on the other side
Story about suicide of Israeli PM's psychiatrist is fake
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's psychiatrist did not commit suicide
thenamal.com
Did Israeli PM Netanyahu’s psychiatrist commit suicide?
Dozens of accounts on Twitter on Tuesday were amplifying the news that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s psychiatrist Dr Moshe…
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Exactly as I suspected.Story about suicide of Israeli PM's psychiatrist is fake
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's psychiatrist did not commit suicide
Did Israeli PM Netanyahu’s psychiatrist commit suicide?
Dozens of accounts on Twitter on Tuesday were amplifying the news that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s psychiatrist Dr Moshe…medium.com
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Would someone do that? Go on the internet and tell lies. Apparently they would.
If Vietnam was the first TV war, this is the first twitter war, the first fully internet-ized war. And we can see now that Steve Bannon was wrong - it's not just a matter of "flooding the zone with shit", on the internet, the zone is the shit.
elbows
Well-Known Member
This sort of tragedy gets more attention and causes more unease within sections of the UK establishment than others:
UK accused of 'whitewash' after Chevening scholar feared killed in Gaza
Dr Maisara Al Rayyes's family is searching for him under a building destroyed in an Israeli strike.
www.bbc.co.uk
PTK
Paul Kegan
From Labour List:
Labour urged not to row back on recognising Palestine
A former shadow minister has urged the party not to further row back on past commitments on recognising a Palestinian state in government, criticising the party’s abandonment of its previous stance in favour of immediate recognition. Richard Burden, vice-chair of Labour Friends of Palestine and the Middle East, told LabourList that immediate recognition could “help kickstart the negotiations towards a two-state solution” and “encourage other countries to follow suit”.
The former MP raised concern at a recent comment piece by David Lammy, in which the Shadow Foreign Secretary said he had promised on a West Bank visit last year the party “will strive to recognise Palestine”. Burden voiced his fears this might signal a less strong commitment, but a Labour spokesperson said the party has supported recognising statehood since 2014. They said it remained committed to doing so alongside international partners as part of efforts to secure a two-state solution. One Labour insider dubbed immediate, unilateral recognition an “unrealistic gesture” that could hinder peace efforts, however.
Ceasefire row rages on
Internal tensions within Labour over Starmer’s stance on the conflict between Israel and Hamas are yet to be calmed. Following Imran Hussain’s resignation from the frontbench on Tuesday night, a report in the Guardian claims four shadow ministers are prepared to quit…and up to 10 others are on “resignation watch”.
LabourList has a rolling list of MPs who have so far expressed support for a ceasefire or cessation of hostilities. A debate in parliament yesterday saw a number of Labour frontbenchers raise the issue of a ceasefire, including Paula Barker and Sarah Owen. Shadow international development minister Lisa Nandy reiterated Labour’s line that humanitarian pauses are “the only viable prospect”, though she echoed Starmer’s words about Israel’s right to self-defence not being a “blank cheque”.
Over in Wales, the Senedd voted in favour of a motion calling for an immediate ceasefire, tabled by Plaid Cymru. Welsh government ministers abstained but Labour backbenchers were given a free vote, with 11 backing the motion – opening up questions about how Starmer would approach such a vote at Westminster. And he may not have long to decide on his strategy: as Politico reports, the SNP has submitted an amendment to the King’s Speech calling for an immediate ceasefire that is likely to be selected by the Speaker for a vote next week, with Labour MP Zarah Sultana filing one too. Elsewhere, the newly-elected general secretary of Labour-affiliated union TSSA Maryam Eslamdoust claimed in an interview with the House Magazine that Starmer’s position on a ceasefire is “untenable”.
Labour urged not to row back on recognising Palestine
A former shadow minister has urged the party not to further row back on past commitments on recognising a Palestinian state in government, criticising the party’s abandonment of its previous stance in favour of immediate recognition. Richard Burden, vice-chair of Labour Friends of Palestine and the Middle East, told LabourList that immediate recognition could “help kickstart the negotiations towards a two-state solution” and “encourage other countries to follow suit”.
The former MP raised concern at a recent comment piece by David Lammy, in which the Shadow Foreign Secretary said he had promised on a West Bank visit last year the party “will strive to recognise Palestine”. Burden voiced his fears this might signal a less strong commitment, but a Labour spokesperson said the party has supported recognising statehood since 2014. They said it remained committed to doing so alongside international partners as part of efforts to secure a two-state solution. One Labour insider dubbed immediate, unilateral recognition an “unrealistic gesture” that could hinder peace efforts, however.
Ceasefire row rages on
Internal tensions within Labour over Starmer’s stance on the conflict between Israel and Hamas are yet to be calmed. Following Imran Hussain’s resignation from the frontbench on Tuesday night, a report in the Guardian claims four shadow ministers are prepared to quit…and up to 10 others are on “resignation watch”.
LabourList has a rolling list of MPs who have so far expressed support for a ceasefire or cessation of hostilities. A debate in parliament yesterday saw a number of Labour frontbenchers raise the issue of a ceasefire, including Paula Barker and Sarah Owen. Shadow international development minister Lisa Nandy reiterated Labour’s line that humanitarian pauses are “the only viable prospect”, though she echoed Starmer’s words about Israel’s right to self-defence not being a “blank cheque”.
Over in Wales, the Senedd voted in favour of a motion calling for an immediate ceasefire, tabled by Plaid Cymru. Welsh government ministers abstained but Labour backbenchers were given a free vote, with 11 backing the motion – opening up questions about how Starmer would approach such a vote at Westminster. And he may not have long to decide on his strategy: as Politico reports, the SNP has submitted an amendment to the King’s Speech calling for an immediate ceasefire that is likely to be selected by the Speaker for a vote next week, with Labour MP Zarah Sultana filing one too. Elsewhere, the newly-elected general secretary of Labour-affiliated union TSSA Maryam Eslamdoust claimed in an interview with the House Magazine that Starmer’s position on a ceasefire is “untenable”.
Similar threads
