HeAthen
Nadgers.
Precisely. If it's a matter for anyone it's her.
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
- Start date
HeAthen
Nadgers.
Headline from Haaretz. I wonder how long it'll be before Netanyahu tries to close them down?
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
As MEE and others pointed out yesterday, a big part (probably the most significant part) of the reason why the three above were not charged by the ICC is because there have been Parliamentary and judicial procedures against those individuals / people associated with those acts in their countries. They might have been insufficient procedures, the people responsible might have evaded the sentences that many people thought they should have faced, but there was an attempt at an independent reckoning and that has usually been enough to dissuade the ICC.
Contrast this with the complete and well-documented absence of nearly any legal consequences to individuals for Israeli military / political actions during the occupation, or indeed for anything else carried out “for the state” such as assassinations, terror attacks, espionage or anything else abroad. There are a handful of individuals who’ve faced trial or court martial for killing or mistreating people under occupation, most of them many years ago and (as Katz reminded everyone last night) an obviously and increasingly racist system of justice that operates there. In short there’s no alternative to the ICC getting involved.
Sadly though I think providing an alternative (the establishment of a relatively independent tribunal within Israel) is going to be the most likely way in which these warrants go away; that tribunal will tear Netanyahu up (for his failures before October 7th and afterwards) and do nothing about the multitude killed in Gaza, but it will be enough for the ICC to drop this.
JimW
支那暗杀团
Tells you how cavalier and vindictive the Israeli assault has been even compared to those disasters.
teqniq
DisMembered
HeAthen
Nadgers.
What an absolute prick.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Proper whataboutery there from Mazzig. Did he raise any objections to the invasion of Iraq? I don't think he did. I'd like to see him in the dock at The Hague. In fact, anyone who propagandises on behalf of Netanyahu's mobster regime should face justice.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Shit-kicking cunt.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Headline from Haaretz. I wonder how long it'll be before Netanyahu tries to close them down?
View attachment 452105
Moves to something similar have been suggested.
Israel targets Haaretz after publisher calls Palestinians 'freedom fighters' see
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Thought this was interesting article
www.newstatesman.com
It goes into the history of left/ progressive support for Israel/ Zionism.
There was a time post war when support for Israel ( the Labour Zionist version) was the norm.
Partly due to it being seen as building socialism and also due to Holocaust.
Back then there was little interest in Palestinians.
Generally the historiography put forward by Israel was accepted. That Palestinians left due to other Arab countries encouraging them. Etc. The Nakba was never mentioned
It wasn't until later , though the article doesn't mention this, that the Israeli new historians revised this version of history.
Change started to happen in 67. With Israel occupying West Bank and Gaza.
Then in early 80s the attack on Lebanon to remove PLO.
Support for Labour Zionism goes back to early days of Labour party. Explains why it's been such a contentious issue in the party. It's not just about Starmer. Support for (Labour) Zionism has deep roots in the party going back decades.
Zionism’s long 20th century
With the Middle East in flames, Britain’s relationship with Israel will transform again.
www.newstatesman.com
It goes into the history of left/ progressive support for Israel/ Zionism.
There was a time post war when support for Israel ( the Labour Zionist version) was the norm.
Partly due to it being seen as building socialism and also due to Holocaust.
Back then there was little interest in Palestinians.
Generally the historiography put forward by Israel was accepted. That Palestinians left due to other Arab countries encouraging them. Etc. The Nakba was never mentioned
It wasn't until later , though the article doesn't mention this, that the Israeli new historians revised this version of history.
Change started to happen in 67. With Israel occupying West Bank and Gaza.
Then in early 80s the attack on Lebanon to remove PLO.
Support for Labour Zionism goes back to early days of Labour party. Explains why it's been such a contentious issue in the party. It's not just about Starmer. Support for (Labour) Zionism has deep roots in the party going back decades.
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HeAthen
Nadgers.
Fascism in action.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Yes and her evasive answer is in stark contrast with Irish PM,
teqniq
DisMembered
I suspect that the lack of any comment on the ICC arrest warrants is because Lammy knows that as the UK is a signatory to the Rome Statute we should uphold and be prepared to act on arrest warrants issued by them.
I really can't imagine why neither he nor Stasrmer would not make a statement on this.
* Removes tongue from cheek *
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
A short read but important one.
Whilst attention is on Gaza the ongoing Zionist project inside the Israeli state that started in 48 still goes on
The first time this community were moved was in 1952 so a Kibbutz could be built. Dispossession didn't end with State of Israel being founded.
Despite these Bedouins being Israeli citizens they were second class ones.
www.972mag.com
In this short piece the writer shows how Zionism was/ is about removing people and replacing them with Jews.
Its been like that from the beginning.
The same tactics used inside Israel as used in West Bank. They started in 48 and arguably 67 occupation was a continuation of them.
Whilst attention is on Gaza the ongoing Zionist project inside the Israeli state that started in 48 still goes on
The first time this community were moved was in 1952 so a Kibbutz could be built. Dispossession didn't end with State of Israel being founded.
Despite these Bedouins being Israeli citizens they were second class ones.
The entire history of Zionism’s injustices, in one Bedouin village
The destruction of Umm Al-Hiran exemplifies the Zionist view of Palestinians as moveable chess pieces in a game of demographic engineering.
www.972mag.com
In this short piece the writer shows how Zionism was/ is about removing people and replacing them with Jews.
Its been like that from the beginning.
The same tactics used inside Israel as used in West Bank. They started in 48 and arguably 67 occupation was a continuation of them.
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Cloo
Banana for scale
This morning our synagogue hosted a community leader from Kibbutz Reim (which the synagogue has formed a partership with), where a number of people were murdered as were many, many of their friends at the neighbouring Nova festival. While it was heartening to hear about all the resources enabling the community to recover, I thought repeatedly about the countless Palestinian people undergoing that level of trauma again and again, for over a year, with nowhere to go for support or safety or recovery.
I'll say this woman from Reim sounded as though she was not unsympathetic towards the Palestinian people and stated that she was unhappy with how then right has claimed 'Zionism', but it's when I mentioned to my other half how I felt hearing the story of the kibbutz and he was having the exact same thought as me.
I'll say this woman from Reim sounded as though she was not unsympathetic towards the Palestinian people and stated that she was unhappy with how then right has claimed 'Zionism', but it's when I mentioned to my other half how I felt hearing the story of the kibbutz and he was having the exact same thought as me.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Must say I always assumed Kibbutz were the nicer side of Zionism
Now I've read more of the history Ive changed my mind
Particularly after establishment of Israeli state the Kibbutz set up then were part military outposts part building the new Labour Zionist state.
Those Kibbutz near what was then new Gaza strip were involved in the border wars post 48 as Palestinians tried to get back to their farms and homes.
These were not the religious hardliners now seen in West Bank. But the secular Zionist equivalents.
The border wars, now largely forgotten, were start of Palestinian resistance.
Good article here by the founder of the Palestinian Land Society of exhibition at Kibbutz built on land taken from Palestinians.
www.plands.org
Its like Israeli went through a stage of amnesia about what really happened.
The founder of Palestine Land Society recounts what happened
And this isn't ancient history.
Now I've read more of the history Ive changed my mind
Particularly after establishment of Israeli state the Kibbutz set up then were part military outposts part building the new Labour Zionist state.
Those Kibbutz near what was then new Gaza strip were involved in the border wars post 48 as Palestinians tried to get back to their farms and homes.
These were not the religious hardliners now seen in West Bank. But the secular Zionist equivalents.
The border wars, now largely forgotten, were start of Palestinian resistance.
Good article here by the founder of the Palestinian Land Society of exhibition at Kibbutz built on land taken from Palestinians.
Palestine Land Society
Palestine Land Society is an independent non-profit scholarly society dedicated towards research and information-gathering on Palestine, the land and its people.
Its like Israeli went through a stage of amnesia about what really happened.
The founder of Palestine Land Society recounts what happened
And this isn't ancient history.
Nylock
I hate 'these days'...
They're playing right into the hands of antisemites with their knee-jerk hysterical accusations of antisemitism at the slightest critique. If you weaponise something and use it often enough as a cudgel with which to silence dissent, eventually the timeworn go-to statement itself is robbed of its meaning and power. Thus when genuine acts of antisemitism are perpetrated, those who enact them can just point to the constant use of it saying "yeah, but come on, they always say that though, don't they?"...
Do the likes of netanyahu and ben-gvir not see how short-sighted and self-defeating that is?
Happy Tree
maagilises metsas
I don't think they care.
Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
It’s blood libel to call a democratically elected baby killer a baby killer.
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HeAthen
Nadgers.
Well, she's a complete cunt isn't she?
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Cloning guinea pigs to feed the five thousand.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
I don't suppose Bibi will actually be going to Gaza anytime soon, and if he did the local authorities might find it difficult to arrest him. Qatar isn't a member of the ICC so anyone else in the Hamas leadership who might face similar charges should be safe too, unless they make the mistake of accepting the hospitality of the Iranians.
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tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
A short read but important one.
Whilst attention is on Gaza the ongoing Zionist project inside the Israeli state that started in 48 still goes on
The first time this community were moved was in 1952 so a Kibbutz could be built. Dispossession didn't end with State of Israel being founded.
Despite these Bedouins being Israeli citizens they were second class ones.
The entire history of Zionism’s injustices, in one Bedouin village
The destruction of Umm Al-Hiran exemplifies the Zionist view of Palestinians as moveable chess pieces in a game of demographic engineering.
In this short piece the writer shows how Zionism was/ is about removing people and replacing them with Jews.
Its been like that from the beginning.
The same tactics used inside Israel as used in West Bank. They started in 48 and arguably 67 occupation was a continuation of them.
It also highlights the way you can be removed and replaced if you are the wrong sort of Jew:
"Zionism’s demographic engineering is not limited to Palestinians. The story of Givat Amal, a Mizrahi neighborhood in Tel Aviv that was forcibly evicted and demolished in 2021, has many parallels to the story of Umm al-Hiran; there, too, the state compelled a marginalized community to move to a frontier area, never regulated their status or rights to the land, and as soon as that land’s value increased, it expelled the residents out of greed."
And if you are a Bedouin who has been kidnapped by the cunts in Hamas, you are the wrong sort of Palestinian and suffer the same abuse and degregation as the other hostages. Assuming they haven't been murdered there are still three Bedouin being held by Hamas.
If you are a bedouin hostage who escapes, you'll be welcome back but Bibi will still demolish your village.
An Israeli freed from Gaza returns to a Bedouin village targeted for demolition | The Associated Press
KHIRBET KARKUR, Israel (AP) — An Israeli hostage rescued from Gaza returned to a hero’s welcome tinged with a bitter reality: Much of the small
www.ap.org
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Loading…
www.icc-cpi.int
The way I read this is that Israel state could still argue about jurisdiction now warrants are issued,
So its not the end of the matter.
And this is damning comment by ICC
To summarise the info,
On genocide its saying ( if I read it right I'm not a lawyer) that their actions did not cross that threshold. Or to be more precise given the material presented to them at the time they could not determine that.
I take it when they say extermination this is about genocide.
And crime of persecution
What I take from this by the ICC is that state of Israel under Netanyahu and Gallant was not just criminally negligent in its responsibility towards civilians.
It was using starvation as a method of warfare intentionally. So the war was directed at civilian population as well as at Hamas.
Its also saying that Palestinian civilians were targeted.
Ie this is not about Hamas using civilians as human shields. Nor does it appear the ICC are taking much credence with idea that civilians were given time to move out of areas under attack by IDF.
ICC also say that the same conduct that led them to make this statement is continuing.
This does beg the question what Israel state which keeps saying its a democratic state was doing all this time. This has been going on for over a year.
International body like ICC only kicks in , in my understanding , if a state does not use its legal system to address theses issues.
As far as I can see the main debate in Israel is whether Netanyahu should go because he's corrupt. That he's continuing to war partly as he knows when its ended he might go to trial for corruption. So has stopped hostage deals.
Not that under his watch war crimes against civilians took place over last year. For a whole year. As the ICC statement says this is despite international bodies and states telling Israel to change the way its pursuing the war.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
As ICC warrants go to the top of the State its going to make it difficult for Israel state to argue individual cases. What I mean is taking each military operation individually and arguing through its lawyers that IHL was followed ( warnings to leave, blaming lack of aid due to stealing by Hamas etc etc)
And also make it difficult to put blame on those further down ( IDF soldiers not following IDF guidelines etc. The most moral army in the world nonsense)
Going for the top people implies imo this attack on Palestinians as a people was agreed at top levels.
As the ICC statement says
The civilian population was
Its not going as far as saying it counts as genocide.
It is saying that the war by State of Israel led by its leaders ( Netanyahu and Gallant) was a war against the Palestinian people in Gaza as a whole.
Well that is how I read it.
No wonder Israel state was so against this.
And no suprise our government has been fairly quiet on the implications of the ICC in issuing the warrants and this statement
And also make it difficult to put blame on those further down ( IDF soldiers not following IDF guidelines etc. The most moral army in the world nonsense)
Going for the top people implies imo this attack on Palestinians as a people was agreed at top levels.
As the ICC statement says
The civilian population was
Its not going as far as saying it counts as genocide.
It is saying that the war by State of Israel led by its leaders ( Netanyahu and Gallant) was a war against the Palestinian people in Gaza as a whole.
Well that is how I read it.
No wonder Israel state was so against this.
And no suprise our government has been fairly quiet on the implications of the ICC in issuing the warrants and this statement
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
HOME
Latest News Read the latest news from UK Lawyers for Israel PRESS HERE FOR NEWSInternational Criminal Court Read UKLFI's submission to the ICC regarding the Prosecutor's applications for arrest warrents of Israeli leaders including the serious inaccuracies in the Prosecutor's allegations PRESS HEREB
www.uklfi.com
There submission to the ICC ( after brief look)
Argues about jurisdiction. This is old argument that Oslo accord mean ICC does not have the jurisdiction its claiming. Also whether Palestine can count as a State in international law.
I expect this argument will continue.
Complementarity. That is the international legal view that states must be allowed to pursue crimes first before ICC becomes involved.
They argue that Israel has a robust legal system. And ICC have not given credence to it.
Get into the evidence about aid. Argue that ICC have got it wrong. That there is not the evidence to back up their assertions.
And finally this statement
So the UKLI rep on LBC was imo not being that clever.
For a sound bite banging on about blood libel might appear best thing to do but for me I've started to just switch off when people like that start going on about anti semitism. I don't even get annoyed anymore. Its what I expect them to say. So my attitude now is whatever.
Looking at there submission to ICC and it would have been better for a UKLI rep to include some of the above points. As least some of them are rational arguments.
The main political statement is the one I've quoted. At no point in what they actually said to ICC did they accuse the court of the blood libel
. The argument they put is that Israel is under existential threat. Which is arguable. That the its all complex argument is used. Ie people in international community don't really have proper understanding of it. Which is also arguable .
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