Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Duncan2]

It's horribly confused.



She thinks flattening Gaza has been about getting the hostages back? Has she not listened to a word Netanyahu has said?

"No country could turn the other cheek to an enemy holding its hostages".What planet is Toynbee on these days?

 

[Larry O'Hara]

This surprised me. Her arguments are so convoluted that I've no idea what she's suggesting, if anything. Just that Starmer's not wrong, it appears.

Labour calling for a ceasefire would achieve nothing. So why should it tear itself apart over this? | Polly Toynbee

Keir Starmer is not playing politics with the Israel-Hamas war, says Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee

www.theguardian.com

do you expect anything else from braindead scum like Toynbee? Really?

 

[sheothebudworths]

A senior United Nations human rights official has resigned in protest of the organisation’s handling over the situation in Gaza, were he said “a genocide [is] unfolding before our eyes”.

Craig Mokhiber, the director of the New York office of high commissioner for human rights, wrote in his resignation letter that it had become “painfully clear” that the UN had failed in its duty “to meet the imperatives of prevention of mass atrocities, of protection of the vulenreable, and of accountability for perpetrators”. He said:

The current wholesale slaughter of the Palestinian people, rooted in an ethno-nationalist settler colonial ideology, in continuation of decades of their systematic persecution and purging, based entirely upon their status as Arabs … leaves no room for doubt or debate… Across the land, Apartheid rules.
The situation in Gaza “is a text-book case of genocide,” he continued, with the aim of the “expedited destruction of the last remannts of indigeous Palestinian life in Palestine”. He added:

What’s more, the governments of the United States, the United Kingdom, and much of Europe, are wholly complicit in the horrific assault.

 

[Cloo]

If UK Labour Party calls for a ceasefire then the only effect would be to jeopardise future diplomatic relations with Israel. Sure. But then this is a good thing.

It might cost some Jewish vote, but probably there won't be enough Jews who oppose it to make a difference... except possibly I live, which would be depressing if it let the Tories back in (as the Corbyn scenario undoubtedly did last time)

 

[Ax^]

Biden has dramatically lost support from Arab-Americans. Let’s see how Starmer fares with muslim voters in the UK.

us elections will come down to Biden , Trump or the JFK related loon

with the margins even abstaining could lead to a trump majority

which is going to create a worse situation that already exists

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Liverpool Street station now:

 

[WhyLikeThis]

 

[Johnny Vodka]

us elections will come down to Biden , Trump or the JFK related loon

with the margins even abstaining could lead to a trump majority

which is going to create a worse situation that already exists

Still, I'd find it hard to give the greenlight to someone like Biden or Starmer given how bad they've shown themselves to be. (Fortunately, we have a bit more in the way of meaningful choice in Scotland.)

 

[frogwoman]

Definitely worth asking whether its genuine. They make up things all the time don't they.

Have you got anything sensible to say, or are you just going to do this sort of passive aggressive bollocks?

 

[two sheds]

Yes I'm not sure questioning the antisemitism figures helps anyone.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

First they're downplaying AS when it's pointed out it's surging across the world they try to claim none of this is connected. I'm not going to engage with them further, they're clearly showing a problem with Jewish people.

Yes I'm not sure questioning the antisemitism figures helps anyone.

I'm not sure implying people on urban are infected with antisemitism is a good idea either. Anyway, is there going to be a list of subjects which are out of bound?

 

[teqniq]

Scenes of complete devastation earlier as Israel targets Jabalya refugee camp for just 1 Hamas commander:



Israel strikes Gaza’s Jabalya refugee camp

 

[hitmouse]

I was just thinking about someone chanting on the Newcastle march. Absolutely determined to get the crowd chanting stuff which would look very bad. "Victory to! / The intifada!" "Justice, is our demand / no peace, on stolen land!" and "resistance, is justified / when Palestine is occupied!" Fortunately the crowd largely ignored these chants but they were very persistent.

I had them down as just a poser / headbanger at the time, but given some of the rhetoric from Braverman etc I'm starting to think it was special branch. I reckon next time, keep an eye out for this sort of thing and give them a talking to.

Fwiw, I would be very cautious about drawing too many conclusions from this, I reckon it was probably just the RCG.

 

[two sheds]

I'm not sure implying people on urban are infected with antisemitism is a good idea either. Anyway, is there going to be a list of subjects which are out of bound?

Nope not implying that. It should become clear if the definition has changed but I think it's worth waiting until that comes.

 

[Knotted]

IIRC the CST don't (or at least didn't) use the IHRA definition of anti-semitism.

Fwiw, here's an important passage from the CST regarding anti-zionism/criticism of Israel

ANTI-ZIONISM AND CRITICISM OF ISRAEL

Antisemitism, anti-Zionism and anti-Israel criticism or hatred are not the same as each other. They can, however, be hard to untangle and distinguish from one another. It is not necessarily antisemitic to criticise Israel or Zionism, even if the criticism is harsh or unfair. Gauging antisemitic motives and impacts largely depends upon the interaction of the following factors:
• Target: Are local Jews being singled out as recipients for criticism, bias or hatred that ostensibly derives from anti-Israel or antiZionist enmity?
• Motivation: To what extent is the criticism, or outright hatred, driven by the Jewish nature of Israel and/or Zionism?
• Content: Does the criticism, or hatred, use antisemitic or otherwise prejudiced language, themes or motifs?
• Response to concerns: Are local Jewish concerns about the above sincerely and equally heard? Or, are Jewish concerns viewed with hostility and singled out for scorn?
• Repeat behaviour: Does the offender repeat their behaviour, knowing the consequences and concerns that will be raised?

https://cst.org.uk/public/data/file/3/7/Antisemitic%20Discourse%20Report%202019.pdf

I don't agree completely with the document as a whole, but my feeling is that it is Zionist Jews trying to focus on anti-semitism rather than get distracted by rhetoric they dislike about Israel. I think the above in particular is about right.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Never heard of this lot but it alleges a D-Notice has been issued to stop media outlets from mentioning UK special forces operating in Gaza.

UK issues D-Notices to suppress reports of SAS special forces operations in Gaza

D Notices are used by the British state to veto the publication of news damaging to its interests. The slavish collusion of the mainstream media ensures that such notices function as gag orders.

www.wsws.org

 

[ska invita]

Quite interesting round up of the socialist sects positions

The British Left on the Israel-Palestine conflict

Obviously, the priority is solidarity against the collective punishment of the inhabitants of Gaza, the relentless bombing there and the attacks on Palestinians by settlers on the West Bank. This d…

thomasspencescat.uk

 

[Cloo]

gsv and I were discussing the way some people can't see/have chosen not to see that people saying 'You can understand why the Hamas attacks happened' is not the same thing as saying 'The Hamas attacks were excusable'. The fact that Hamas could find people full of enough fury and hate didn't come out of nowhere. It came from poverty, desperation, hopelessness, grief and misery that is caused by Israel's policy towards the Palestinians. It didn't have to be caused by Israel's existence but it was the path the government chose to follow.

BTW, The flipside of this is I also understand why some Jews will back up Israel no matter what, which is also not excusing that, just explaining it. Namely that Jews do have a lot of generational trauma and many have really internalised an idea the Everyone Hates Us and It's Going to Happen Again and Israel is Our Only Safe Refuge. So you can't criticise. It has the right to whatever it needs to do because it's not just protecting itself, it's protecting all Jews. I don't think that's right, but there are historic reasons a significant number of Jews feel that way.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

BTW, The flipside of this is I also understand why some Jews will back up Israel no matter what, which is also not excusing that, just explaining it. Namely that Jews do have a lot of generational trauma and many have really internalised an idea the Everyone Hates Us and It's Going to Happen Again and Israel is Our Only Safe Refuge. So you can't criticise. It has the right to whatever it needs to do because it's not just protecting itself, it's protecting all Jews. I don't think that's right, but there are historic reasons Jews feel that way.

The generational trauma is massively under appreciated in my experience when it comes to understanding the Jewish communities….

 

[Rimbaud]

Fwiw, I would be very cautious about drawing too many conclusions from this, I reckon it was probably just the RCG.

Yes probably, they have a stall about Palestine in Newcastle every weekend. I wouldn't be naive about the degree of interest intelligence agencies have in seemingly irrelevant far left groups though.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

The generational trauma is massively under appreciated in my experience when it comes to understanding the Jewish communities….

There will be a fair amount of that on the Palestinian side too.

 

[Gramsci]

This was hard to watch.

So her take on the alleged anti semitic chant was wrong.

And she has sent money to support the IDF

Which bit of this was a hard watch for you?

Just wondering. I Iooked up the IDF thing and Knotted drew my attention to the students calling for a genocide allegation.as wrong.

So just asking.

 

[hitmouse]

Quite interesting round up of the socialist sects positions

The British Left on the Israel-Palestine conflict

Obviously, the priority is solidarity against the collective punishment of the inhabitants of Gaza, the relentless bombing there and the attacks on Palestinians by settlers on the West Bank. This d…

thomasspencescat.uk

I was wondering who wrote that, but the author name gives a bit of a clue. I would've added that the other main child of the Militant/SP tradition, Soc Alt, got custody of the Israeli CWI section in the divorce. Like the SP, they've had a relatively sensible take on it, but with the advantage of being able to directly republish stuff from people involved in the Israeli anti-war movement:

Israel-Palestine: Amid normalisation of occupation and siege, new war erupts - Socialist Alternative

In face of loss and bloodbath, struggle for a root solution is needed By Secretariat of Socialist Struggle Movement (ISA in Israel-Palestine) The dramatic actions of warfare this weekend — with over one thousand dead so far — in Israel and the Gaza Strip has shaken the world. This could be the...

socialistalternative.info

 

[Gramsci]

Have you got an

Dagestan: Mob storms Russian airport in search of Jews

Israel urges Russia to protect Jews after furious crowd confronts passengers arriving from Tel Aviv.

www.bbc.co.uk

Probably just pissed off at Starmer and the Labour Party eh

Yeah, I think I'm done...you get the idea.

Sorry whats that supposed to mean.

I think its disgusting to equate opposition to Starmer opposing a ceasefire to this.

 

[Sue]

LoL

I am genuinely interested in what you think but this doesn't really tell me much. Understand if you don't want to engage, just interested in your pov.

 

[Gramsci]

Just got home and watching the news. Israel bombed a refugee camp. And our leaders Starmer / Sunak are not calling for a ceasefire.

And their are posters here making a joke about those like me who oppose the way Starmer has been dealing with this.

Im livid

 

[Gramsci]

Double post. As Im so angry this evening. Not my usual calm and considered self.

I've tried on this thread not to rise to it. And read background stuff/ posted up reasonably thoughtful posts.

But today Im not in mood for it.

Israel isn't just seeking revenge for the terrorist attack on it. Its now moved to mass murder by bombing.

This isnt something to joke about.

 

[Protag]

The generational trauma is massively under appreciated in my experience when it comes to understanding the Jewish communities….

How about not stealing people's land and going from there. The whole thing is rather tiresome, and I wish humanity can move on from this. Some day

 

[tommers]

Have you got an

Sorry whats that supposed to mean.

I think its disgusting to equate opposition to Starmer opposing a ceasefire to this.

Mate, she isn't. It's part of an ongoing exchange.

Things are fucking awful at the moment, I've been tearful a couple of times today but this isn't what you think it is.

 

[_Russ_]

The person who wrote the book on Hamas I've tried to look up to see what his take is now.

Came across this from 2021

By defending Jerusalem, Hamas stakes its claim to Palestinian national leadership

The continuous rise of Hamas's political capital in recent days has been matched by an erosion in the PA's support

www.middleeasteye.net

This has been a slow process.

Hamas control Gaza and PLO/ Fatah West Bank. The daily humiliations that ordinary Palestinians go through on West Bank led to Hamas being criticised for focusing to much on Gaza and not the overall cause. The Palestinian Authority run by Fatah/ PLO have been seen to be impotent in face of Israeli provocations


And this



This all goes back to the peace process that ended up as Fatah just been de facto Israel security force on West Bank. No US pressure to move to genuine two state solution. Israel governments continuing to allow illegal settlements building on West Bank. The Palestinian Authority impotent to halt this.

One thing that pushes violence is people being humiliated on day to day basis. With no recourse to any legitimate means to stop it It becomes unbearable.

Hamas were under pressure to take more interest in West Bank and not just concentrate on Gaza.

Given humiliating people feeds conflict perhaps it's more understandable how Hamas got drawn more into overall Palestine issues.

This article also shows at least in West Bank Hamas were popular

J

One of the many reasons I detest the 'do you condemn?' line of questioning is that it's exhausting. Having to constantly expose your moral compass to people who assume you have none (else they woudln't ask) is tiring emotional labour. Frankly I'm running out of sympathy for the state of Israel. Don't misunderstand, those people who got murdered by Hamas and kidnapped are victims etc ("I condemn...") but Israel chose it's response. What happens now is on them and they are, as you say, committing wanton mass murder with no discernible endgame. I mean, what does defeating Hamas even look like? Is it dliebrately amorphous, so they can keep using it as an excuse to, as they put it, 'mow the lawn' periodically?

Yes I'm not sure questioning the antisemitism figures helps anyone.

Yep, lets select what should and should not be open to questions...........fuck all that freedom of expression shit